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The Business Transformation

The Business Transformation Podcast 018-Wendy Sherrock
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Wendy Sherrock – The secret to program success: How to use Change Management properly for sustained business transformation [018]

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"🎙️ Just wrapped up an insightful conversation with Wendy Sherrock on The Business Transformation Podcast. Her wisdom on the importance of prioritising employee experience for a successful customer experience is truly enlightening. Tune in for more insights on driving transformational change! 💼💡" #BusinessTransformation #EmployeeExperience #CustomerExperience

🎙️ Dive into the world of business transformation with our latest episode featuring Wendy Sherrock, a seasoned Business Transformation Consultant with over 20 years of experience! 💼✨

Wendy’s expertise spans senior leadership and delivery roles, from Co-executive sponsor to Senior Director, with a focus on Change Management, Business Transformation, and Process Excellence. 🌟

In this captivating conversation, we explore:

🔄 The common misconceptions and challenges in Change Management today.

🚀 Why Change Management requires a specialised skillset and cannot be oversimplified.

🔍 The key elements of effective Change Management, from understanding the current state to inspiring employees on the transformation journey.

Join us as we unpack the complexities of Change Management and discover how you can drive successful transformations in your organisation! 🎧

#BusinessTransformation #ChangeManagement #LeadershipInsights

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Welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast. I’m your host,Heath Gascoigne. This is a show where I cut through all the hype and noise and get to the facts of what actually is business transformation and what is required, how to and how not to do it. I’ll be talking to industry experts and professionals to share their stories, strategies, and insights to help you start, turnaround, or grow your business transformation. By the end of this podcast, we have some practical tips to use to make your business transformation a success. Whether you’re just at the start of your journey or midway through, I hope you enjoy.




[00:00:00]Heath: Hello, welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast. My name is Heath Gascoigne and I am the host of the Business Transmission Podcast. And this is the show for business Transmits who are part business strategists, part business designers, part collaborators, and part negotiators. Business transmitters have moved past just business design and includes oversight of implementation of those business designs and business transformations, and includes stakeholder management, coordination, and negotiation.


[00:00:27] Heath: If you work in strategy, development and implementation and work to ensure that the strategy is aligned to the business design and technology, then you’re probably a business transmitter. This is the show where we speak to industry experts and professionals to share their stories, strategies and insights to help you start, turn around and grow your business.


[00:00:45] Heath: Welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast, and in this episode we are talking to one of those industry experts. We are speaking to Wendy Sherrock, a business transformation consultant of over 20 years experience specializing in process excellence data, a analytics project management, and multiple industries, including software and financial services.


[00:01:05]Heath: In this time, she’s had held many titles and roles from co-executive sponsor, vp Operational Effectiveness, senior Principal, Process Excellence, Senior Director of Process Excellence, led many project and programs at ftra. Masco Contractor Services, Charlie Tech, and GE Capital name of a few is a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and holds your MBA and Bachelor’s in marketing.


[00:01:29]Heath: Wendy, did I miss anything? 


[00:01:32]Wendy: I think that’s a great summary. 


[00:01:33]Heath: Well, well, thank you. You’re welcome and welcome to show. Thank you for your time. And, and for, for, for complete speaking we’ll say disclosure, we’ve never met before. Right. So this is, other than just having a, a brief chat beforehand. And for location wise, you are in Orlando, in Florida?


[00:01:50]Heath: That’s correct. Okay. So for, for our viewers and. What that means is we’re in different, I am now in, not in, not in usual London, I’m in Manchester for a program here. And so we’re in different continents. So some of the things that you will see are not necessarily as I get the comments and, and, and messages through the different chats and and LinkedIn and YouTube.


[00:02:13]Heath: This is not unique to us. It only happens in the us You might find that some of these symptoms and behaviors are not just unique to where you are in the world. It is a, a, a side effect of the projects and programs that we are, we work at. Okay. So for context, for our listeners, we summarize as we have done on on the show, is to, to three points to, to keep easy to follow.


[00:02:40]Heath: So we’re gonna discuss three points. The first one being something that’s probably a little bit overlooked in, in program and transformations is the role of change management. , is it, , is it one of, it’s like a, almost some people would say it’s a staple part of change, manage of, of program management.


[00:02:54]Heath: You need this, or transformation programs, you need this. Some have a different view on it. So we’re gonna discuss about, , what is working, what is, what should be expected the process, Wendy, that you follow when you join a program to make them successful. Having been in this for business for over 20 years and the trends in the industry, in the market right now.


[00:03:12]Heath: What are, what is working? Is there, what’s what’s the trends as positive and also the challenges and how, how’s that been? Sounds great. Okay, so first cab off direct, there’s change management. This is something that that I see personally when I join a program according to the program. I’ll ask, Okay, so what have you got so far?


[00:03:31]Heath: What, what does the team look like? And they’ll tell me They’ve got a number of team players. They’ll say, I’ll ask you if you got a project manager. Yes. Have you got a business change person? Yes. Have you got a PMO to support? Yes. And you got a business analyst? Yes, and then myself and then others would be the business architects.


[00:03:47]Heath: You have them and Yes. And then you rock up and they’re almost got every other person they need Other than a business change person. Why is that? See it all the 


[00:03:57]Wendy: time. . Yes. It’s, it is interesting. It’s, it’s one of the areas that I think so many companies just take for granted. They oversimplify change management.


[00:04:08]Wendy: Mm-hmm. , they believe that if we just send out a memo, if we just explain this is, this is. What we’re changing and why one time that they’re good to go. Yeah. And that it’ll be picked up by the program manager. And they, I think it’s just, it, it really is. They oversimplify. 


[00:04:26]Heath: Oh, yes. Yeah. That is oversimplification.


[00:04:29]Heath: Yeah. And I think part of that is, is a couple of things of not really knowing the role of what a business change person does. 


[00:04:37]Wendy: There’s a lot of confusion around that too. Yes. I, I would agree with that. They, they tend to I’ve seen, I’ve seen them confuse them for a business analyst, which it is a different role.


[00:04:48]Wendy: I’ve seen them confused for process excellence, which is again, a different role. And, and like I said earlier at program management, they just kind of assumed that, that it’s, the program manager can pick up all of the change management, which on a very small program Sure. But usually in a large transformation you have so many different uh, Tentacles, , happening out, out throughout the organization that you really need somebody who’s focused on what is happening, the timing of things, understanding the current state, the future state, how roles are changing, and, and it’s, , it’s, it’s the communications, it’s the training, but it’s much more than that as well.


[00:05:28]Heath: Yep. Yeah. I also, I, I get also the there’s, I’ve joined programs where someone will say, We don’t need a business architect. We’ve got a project, project manager. And I’ll say, Okay, so I think what you’re starting with the project manager is that they are managing the process. They are making sure that the things are done well, as not necessarily the right things are being done.


[00:05:54]Heath: And so the architect will come and say, These are the right things, and they’ll get assistance by the project manager to make sure they’re done well. And so if you ask the project manager to do the business architecture, he’ll say, Well, managing the process, what exactly in this process are you managing?


[00:06:09]Heath: So I change manager is like, Well, we’re doing impact assessment, gap analysis, we understanding the skills and needs analysis, training needs. And then we’re talking about communication. We’ve gotta communicate to the what are your current understanding of the transformation, your role in it. Do you see how is your role changing?


[00:06:26]Heath: Do how your role is gonna change? And, and I think we, we talked this a little bit about earlier, about the 


[00:06:31]Wendy: journey. Absolutely, yes. And the timing of that and, and how it’s being paced and yeah, you, you really have to lay, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot to it you, a lot to unpack and I think it, it really does, It does, it hooks into all the other things you’re talking about, but it, , as you said, with business architecture, it’s a very specialized skill set and you don’t want just any program manager coming in to, to try to figure out what the architecture should look like and, and change management, management experts have that expertise as well.


[00:07:06]Wendy: They, they’ve done those, those, those gap assessments and skill assessments and, and they can really understand, , what it is that we need to communicate and how and when so that we can make people more comfortable with what, what’s coming and, and prepare them and bring them with, with us on the journey.


[00:07:26]Wendy: Yeah. 


[00:07:26]Heath: Yeah. That’s a, that’s a key part there. The, the, the journey part about. I pick on technology a little bit. I don’t mean to pick on technology, but they are, I’ve joined a previous client that they, when the project started, the first thing they were doing is rfp. They’ve gone to the market and said, We know what we want.


[00:07:46]Heath: We’re gonna go to a supplier to build it. And I said, You 


[00:07:49]Wendy: have to start with the customer experience , and then, And then figure out what the right solution is, right? Absolutely, Absolutely.


[00:07:56]Heath: Yeah. Customer or first people. First or person. People lead. The problem before the solution. We have this 


[00:08:05]Wendy: conversation almost every day.


[00:08:07]Wendy: Yes. I, I’m currently working with, with a, a team that includes a business architects, a business solutions team. Yep. And that’s the, the question they’re constantly asking is, , what is the problem we’re solving for? Whereas others are coming forward with, we have this, this specific need. And it’s, , it’s kind of like the, the tree in, in the forest and they’re, they’re not looking at the forest.


[00:08:28]Wendy: I feel like, , as business architectures, you’re looking at, at the forest and how, how to make sure that all the trees are the right trees and the right. Place and you don’t have too many trees, So it Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot there. But to your point, what is the problem that you’re solving for?


[00:08:45]Wendy: And, and then, , why, why are you implementing the change? What is the benefit that the organization is going to see? How does it affect me? What’s the with what’s in it for me? Oh, I love that. 


[00:08:56]Heath: That’s the, the, Yeah. Yeah. What’s, Cause 


[00:09:00]Wendy: that’s, that’s what people care about, right? Mm-hmm. What does this mean for me?


[00:09:02]Wendy: Like, how, how is my life going to change? What do I need to do differently? Yeah. 


[00:09:07]Heath: So if you, you that you, that. , Wendy is in, in another continent. , you might have heard in the last few podcasts, and I said the same thing, and Wendy said it first is about what’s in it for me? That’s the w i fm, which, , it’s the, it’s the radio station that everyone is tuned in.


[00:09:25]Heath: What’s their interests? Is it being represented in this project about this journey you’re about to go on. So for context, this is not something that’s happening in America or happening only in the uk. This is like, okay, there’s a thing here and this thing is people will look for what’s in it for them. So if you are not, like I see in this, even just joining this new program here that there’s a lot of interest about technology.


[00:09:51]Heath: I said, But you, you’ve gone straight to the technology solution. Again, you’ve not asked the question, what’s the problem that’s talking about design principles about? And I go, Yeah, okay. These design principles seem to be very I know. Interesting and probably useful, but I dunno the context, I don’t understand what they’re helping.


[00:10:10]Heath: Yes, we need governance and yes, we need process excellence, but what problem are they solving? They said, Well, we could give you a last year’s history, but it’s gonna take a long time for us to explain it. And I said, Well, you don’t have to gimme a whole year’s history, but you need to tell me the problem that they’re addressing.


[00:10:25]Heath: You’re just giving me answers here to a problem I don’t know exists. So, , and I think what you’ll find is that when you go to get something approved, the business or, or the, the, the design authority or the board you’re taking to will go, what’s the 


[00:10:38]Wendy: point? . Right. And you may already have a system that, that, that addresses the capabilities that they’re, that they’re trying to, to bring forward.


[00:10:47]Wendy: And, , again, they’re, they’re in their silo and they’re, they’re not necessarily seeing how it’s connected across the organization. Mm. I one of the things that I’m seeing more and more over the last, especially in the last like five to six years, is design thinking, more focus on design thinking.


[00:11:05]Wendy: Yep. One of my favorite things about that is, is the question, how might we, So it gets people to step away from that. Like, here’s, here’s what we need to do, and they’re jump, they’re jumping to a solution, which is another thing that I try to get people to hold back on. I think you’re saying the same thing in a different way.


[00:11:22]Wendy: Yeah. But it’s, but it really is like, how might we, if we, if we could just. Start from scratch, and we really put ourselves in, in the mind of the customer. Mm-hmm. In the sh in the shoes and walk through what it is they’re really trying to accomplish. Yep. The capabilities that we need to, in order to accomplish that.


[00:11:40]Wendy: How might we, how might we build a solution that would be an amazing experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s, that’s, that’s one I, that’s something I like about the design thinking. I know that’s, that’s just one of a whole framework behind it, but in methodology, but it’s, it’s a great mindset. I feel like it brings, it brings to the table.


[00:12:01]Heath: Yeah. It’s a, I think there’s a. The, the, the touching on there is the mindset part. I think that’s an under or under an understated or under-recognized I knows ability or an element of transformation that people haven’t quite, or both the companies who are going for transformation, but consultants coming in to help them change.


[00:12:22]Heath: They don’t understand if it’s mindset or culture or both, that you have to understand where these people are and meet them where they are now and go, okay, like previous client, they just let go. A 2070 was a third of the staff and my role there as a business architect come to target operating model and part of that was, Oh, okay, you’ve got this process you’re doing and now you need to be, build this capability.


[00:12:47]Heath: Oh, your. Organization structure can’t handle this future model. You need to increase the staff. And I was told, you can’t say that. And I said, What do you mean? I said, Well, you, they’ve just let go of a third of the staff. You can’t be talking about building up the staff again because they just let go a third of the staff.


[00:13:04]Heath: And I said well a couple of things. , part of the old conversation is that we will bring, we’ll all raise these suggestions, recommendations that may be uncomfortable, but if we don’t, I think we’re doing a disservice cuz we know that there’s a gap and this is how you’d fill it. But yeah, you’re told that you can’t say certain things.


[00:13:21]Heath: Well, no. This part of what we’re doing is understanding where these people are right now and what they want to achieve and then say, okay, oh, so you’ve just been for this restructure. Okay. It’s sensitive. So, , we, we, we sensitive about that conversation. And so what’s their mindset like? Well, They will talk, they actually say these, the previous clients would say, Oh, we had amazing staff here before, amazing staff.


[00:13:46]Heath: And so, So where are they now? Oh, we had to let them go. Let them go. It said, Oh yeah, like 30 or 40 years. And, and they were become expensive in terms of , retirement packages. So they made decision to, to let them go before it would’ve cost them ly and go, Oh, goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, , what do you, So what’s the vision for this company?


[00:14:05]Heath: And let’s start there. Like, I think your, your approach has, the vision in it also is like, so what’s the vision? And how do you, if you, how do you build a capability to support that vision? It’s like, okay, but we’re gonna have these, these conversations about mindset. So where are the, where are the people now understand what change they’ve been through?


[00:14:25]Heath: Are they change adverse, they’re open to change. Do they need handholding? , what are you gonna do? Or are you just gonna say, Here’s a solution and we’ve made a decision for you and this is what it’s gonna look like. , 


[00:14:37]Wendy: one of the, the, it’s a simple, it’s a simple thing, and I found that it’s incredibly valuable in terms of a part of, part of a, a broader change management strategy, but identifying change, change agents to represent all of those kind of employee groups.


[00:14:54]Wendy: First, I, I do wanna just take a step back just in hearing what you just described. I also, it’s something I’m super, super passionate about and I, I feel like many companies are finally coming on side, but it drives me crazy when, when companies don’t treat employees well, because if employees, The employee experience drives the customer experience.


[00:15:17]Wendy: Yes. And it, it’s a very strong co correlation. I wanna say it’s like 80, 80, 80 5%. If, if if you. Care for the employee experience, you are not going to have a good customer experience. Yep. So I, to me it’s kind of game over. So I, I feel like nickling and diving is just not gonna get you there.


[00:15:34]Wendy: Sorry, just had to say that 


[00:15:35]Heath: out loud. No, that’s, I’m gonna quote you on that one. Yeah. Employee experience drives customer experience. Yeah. I, I, I had this recently, previous client, just recently, and they had already with their decisions about all technology first, and, and I’d say, Hey, look, I think what you need to do is you gotta go to the business and ask them.


[00:15:54]Heath: And they said, Oh no, the business is not interested. I said, What do you mean you’ve got guys here, guys are girls here. , it’s your staff members that have been here like 20 to 30. , if they don’t care, they would’ve left after one year, not 20 years. So that, that argument of they don’t care.


[00:16:10]Heath: No, they very much care. Cause they wouldn’t have hung around for 20 years. Exactly. This little market you’re in is quite specialist. Their market value would be quite high. So they’re not here because they want to, , they were here because, or need to, They were here cause they want to. So , to your point about, , the people, if you get that right, Yeah.


[00:16:28]Heath: , everything goes, goes. 

[00:16:31]Wendy: And, and having those change agents can really help you not just build the, the change management strategy. But I, I have just found in, in the programs where, where we, where I had a network of change agents that, I mean, and I engage them early. I like to engage them up front.


[00:16:49]Wendy: We don’t meet as frequently cuz you don’t have to at that point. But they found, they found potholes that we could address proactively long before, , we would’ve found them if, if had we not engaged them as part of the journey. So, yeah, , ensuring that you have representation across all the, the various groups that are going to be impacted by the change, that, that’s a very powerful way to make sure that you’re tracking in the right way.


[00:17:15]Wendy: And one easy way to do that is, is for all the departments that are represented, identify one person to be a change agent from each of those groups and, and they can help kind of carry the message both ways for you. Simple but powerful. 


[00:17:30]Heath: Yeah. , I’m, I’m a, I’m a big fan of the, the change agents.


[00:17:34]Heath: , when I think there’s one, another, another client I work with, I put my approach together and said, this is my approach got approved by the program manager and director and project manager. They said, Okay, now you gotta take it to the, the sponsor to get approved to the board. So I took it along and and then the, the sponsor says, Hey, I understand your process.


[00:17:52]Heath: It’s got six steps to it. I want you to start at number five. And I said, Oh wow. Okay, so you want me to start at the design part? And he says, Yeah. And I said, Okay, you want me to do the identical thing that the last two guys did? And he goes, Yes. And I said, And how that finished, right? That’s why I’m here because that didn’t work and you want me to do it the same way he goes, Yeah.


[00:18:13]Heath: And I said, Okay, if you give me 20 minutes, I’m gonna be back. Like, I’m gonna go to the drawer, I’m gonna find it, I’m gonna present it back to him. So there’s no point in me doing any work. Cause he just gonna prove the same thing. And he goes, Okay, look. You can do it your own way, but , I, yeah, I, I I don’t agree with it, but I’ll let you do it your own way and cause I said, Okay, look, there’s, there’s had 53 sites around the country.


[00:18:36]Heath: And I said, Great. I said, Well first we’re gonna do the baseline. We’re gonna understand what happens today in the operation operating model. And he goes, he they do just business. Yeah. 53 different ways. And I said, Great, just pick one, which is one, one way. And we, , that’d be, we’ll call best practice and some be aspiration for others and some will be just below operating, but it’s good enough.


[00:18:54]Heath: And we’ll call that the baseline. We’ll build from there. And he goes and he goes, he could see making a little bit of a sense. And he goes, Okay, fine, but I disagree. And I said, But this is what I need. I don’t know your business at all. I need the team seconded, to your point from different parts of the business.


[00:19:11]Heath: And so what we end up happening is I train them on how to do the presentations and the facilitation of the workshops and the things we wanna. and then we came back and got it approved and, and the, the response said at the, the approval board meeting at nine months later, he goes, He, you did what we asked.


[00:19:26]Heath: Thank you very much. And I said, But look, I said to you at the beginning, I have an approach, but I have no knowledge of your business. It was actually your own staff talking to your own staff. And that’s why it worked. Cause it wasn’t me talking to them and it wasn’t a group of consultants. It was your, to your point there, the change change champions, your own people talking to your own Absolut.


[00:19:48]Wendy: Yeah. And it’s a great way to find when you, when you do that baseline, it’s a great way to find those bright spots. And that can be really helpful to, to improve the process as well. If it’s coming from the, , the people versus to your point, like some, a consultant that just comes in, that that tells everyone that you should do it a different way, but rather, hey, this is already working in this location.


[00:20:10]Wendy: Let’s, let’s bring it across and, and raise the level up across the organization can be quite powerful. 


[00:20:17]Heath: Yeah. So, so your, your tip there is that you gotta find that the change agents to, and then could you, you have a diversity inclusion background, right? So I do. And, and part of that is identifying the, make sure those different groups are represented in the change and then to the key person in that group to be the, the spokesperson.


[00:20:37]Wendy: Yes. And, and it’s, , I think it’s two things, right? So it’s, it’s from A, like a department functionality, role perspective, but it’s also from a diversity, equity, and inclusion. So ensuring that you have that representation across the board. You, you, you don’t want all the same type of person mm-hmm.


[00:20:56]Wendy: Your customers aren’t that way. So, , having that diversity both in role and, and from a , all the other aspects, gender , person of color, et cetera, et cetera, you want as much diversity as you can. That, that’s where you get the really innovative thinking. And, and again, you’ll, you’ll find, you’ll find those you’ll both the bright spots as well as the, as the, , the potholes that you, that you.


[00:21:21]Wendy: Yeah. Fall into if you don’t a address them proactively up front. So it can just be, it’s, it’s just so, so important to have that representation. It’s something I’m quite passionate 


[00:21:33]Heath: about. Yeah. The, the bright spots and also the blind spots. 


[00:21:37]Wendy: The blind spots. That’s probably better than a pothole. , same thing.


[00:21:41]Wendy: Let’s keep that. Yeah, yeah. Ok. No, it’s 


[00:21:42]Heath: absolutely all right. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, that’s, that’s a key part there. I like how you said the diversity in two parts, both the classic role and responsibilities part, but the other characteristics and so that like, like you would’ve done in your MBA when talked about was it heterogeneous groups and groupthink and avoiding groupthink, Right.


[00:22:06]Heath: Is it is more diverse, you can get the better it is for the creativity as you said, , that’s where the innovation more innovative. 


[00:22:13]Wendy: Yep. Yes, absolutely. . Yeah. And you help to mitigate, , the bias if you, if you, , pick homogeneous groups and, and , there that group thing comes with them and, and some bias is gonna come with that too.


[00:22:27]Wendy: And, and, and you wanna make sure you’re mitigating that risk as well. 


[00:22:32]Heath: Yeah, that’s, that’s it’s a big one there, that perception bias, confirmation bias, all the, 


[00:22:39]Wendy: Yeah. I, I don’t know if you’ve ever taken any of the I a t tests, the implicit association tests, but that no, That is, that can be quite eye, eye opening.


[00:22:47]Wendy: So if you wanna test for your own personal bias and news flash, we all have bias . Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So the first time I took it, I was quite horrified. It, it showed that I had some, I had a gender bias, and I’m like, Well, wait a minute. I, but how can that be? And then as I, , I, we, we went through diversity training, gender well bias training.


[00:23:07]Wendy: And then I, I actually went on to, to teach that. And so it’s really helped me understand that, , what we, we all, because of the messages we receive and the, , all the things that, that, all the influences that we have as we grow up in the world, there’s, there’s no way you can avoid bias. The, the, the key isn’t to try to get rid of it.


[00:23:28]Wendy: You’re not gonna get rid of it. The key is to be able to identify cognize. Yeah. I can now tell when I, when a. Kicks in. So if I stick with a gender bias as an example, many times when a female violates the, the gender norms, in other words, if a female is like too strong in her opinions mm-hmm. , , you might react to that because she’s, she’s not behaving the way that, , according to the, the norms.


[00:23:54]Wendy: Norms. And, and so now I can almost, I can tell and I’m like, Okay, stand back and, and, and change your perspective. Yes. And it’s quite effective that way. So I, I know I, I digress there for a moment, but it is a, you can, they’re free. You can, you can just Google I A I A T and they have tests for, , gender, people of color.


[00:24:18]Wendy: Physical attributes. It just, I, a number of them out there and it’s, it’s test, it milli, , milliseconds your response to some of the questions in order to get that score and you can’t hide . So it’s quite 


[00:24:31]Heath: interesting. Okay. So, so there was a implicit a, what is the at, Is there something to 


[00:24:36]Wendy: implicit Implicit Association 


[00:24:40]Heath: Test.


[00:24:40]Heath: Association Test. Okay. We’ll put a link in the show notes there. Yeah, that’ll be interesting. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll get the link and yeah, we’ll get link and edit to you. It 


[00:24:50]Wendy: Interesting. Yeah. You’ve read, if you’ve read the, the book by Malcolm Gladwell Blank, he talks a little bit about his own experience taking, taking the test, and, and he is a person of color and.


[00:25:01]Wendy: Found himself with a bias in that area. And he, and, and he kind of explains the fact that just because you a bias doesn’t make you a bad person. It’s, , we all have it. And, and kind of the why behind it, and then what you can do about it. So it’s, yeah, it’s quite fascinating. 


[00:25:18]Heath: Yeah. I’m a, I’m a fan of it.


[00:25:19]Heath: What’s this couple of books he’s written? Is it Not Good To Great. No, that’s Jim Collins. Yes, that’s Jim Collins Tipping Point. 


[00:25:25]Wendy: The Tipping Point. Tipping Point. And then the, the one about the 10,000 Hours Oh, 


[00:25:29]Heath: about becoming an expert? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll put the links, so those books in there.


[00:25:35]Heath: Yeah. Yeah. I, I’m a big fan of books like, , this been fundamental to me learning to, Yeah. To get to this another, 


[00:25:41]Wendy: Yeah. Another great one, just bringing us back to Change Management is Switch. Have you read Switch? No. By Dan, Dan and, and Chip Heath, and they I, I love that book. It’s one of my favorite business books.


[00:25:54]Wendy: I, I think partly because they tell it all in stories mm-hmm. , and they, they they break it down very simply. So you have the elephant, the writer, the rider on top of the elephant, and then you have the path. And so the, the rider on kind of represents that, that analytical side. And so you have to, you have to appeal to, to the , it’s that analytical perspective, but also we tend to, that tends to be the side that also over, over analyzes things too.


[00:26:25]Wendy: Mm-hmm. . So you have to kind of direct the rider and, and mitigate that, that tendency to, to overanalyze. And then the, the elephant is the heart, it’s the, the emotional side. So you have to appeal to the emotions. And then the path is all. Leading the, the elephant and the writer down the path to the new vision that you’re setting.


[00:26:49]Wendy: And, and they tell so many different stories about how, how they’ve done this. And they talk about bright spots. That’s kind of where I picked up that, that terminology and really love it. They have one powerful example of where they had, there was a company that had they were spending. A lot of money on work gloves, and they were, and it was all over the board.


[00:27:09]Wendy: And so they, they said that we could have just, , pulled a report and just showed the numbers in a boring spreadsheet. Yeah. But it was a, but it was a meeting where they physically came into a room and they had somebody actually go out and buy a single glove based on every single, like, contract they had.


[00:27:29]Wendy: And they put the price of the glove, , like the little price on the glove. And so these executives walked in, there’s a mound of work gloves. They’re all different prices. Some of the same glove gloves, they’re, they’re paying like three or four different prices for, and they’re like, This is crazy.


[00:27:45]Wendy: So they were appealing to that emotional side. Yeah. But also, yeah, just making the point. They, they, it’s a great book. It’s one of my favorites. I just read it for the third time, . 


[00:27:55]Heath: Wow. Okay. So that’s by Dan and Chip Heath. Yes. 


[00:28:00]Wendy: Oh, wow. Last name, not 


[00:28:02]Heath: first name. . Yeah. Yeah. I have to read it now. It’s got, it’s got my name in it.


[00:28:05]Heath: Exactly. . Okay. So then that was so we’re talking about groups, group thinking and avoiding bias as part of the change management element. And we’re getting out Yes. And forming those, those groups so that we, by, by nature of smart, like I know group dynamics, , group dynamic, group formation, goes through those stages that you, you, we’d be smart about putting those, those groups together.


[00:28:33]Heath: Smart about identifying our change champions that has those qualities. , we’ve now they have got the roles and responsibilities elements that it’s diverse in that sense. And then mm-hmm. diverse and inclusion and equity. It’s diverse in that sense that you’ve got the representation across your different people in, in the organization that they’re represented.


[00:28:54]Heath: Yeah, we talked about there that you, the, the homogeneous, so the groups, so we got creative thinking. We’re not all group think and then we can take a test. So if we are, , if we’re not very conscious ourselves of, we might have a natural tendency, but, , to you, to what you said, , I’m also the same that, , we by nature that, , we have these bias and it will be helpful to, , self-assess and we’re honest to ourselves.


[00:29:21]Heath: And, and probably some people would say, No, no, no, I’ve got no bias. 


[00:29:26]Wendy: people definitely react differently to it and not everyone’s open to it, but I, I do strongly recommend it. Yeah. 


[00:29:33]Heath: Yeah. Yeah, me too. The I think one that’s one took a test or even personality tests, , like the, My Briggs and people were threatened by that idea.


[00:29:42]Heath: And I said, Well, I look at it, the, My Briggs as its two ways it tells you about your preference, but it also tells that your preference of how you like to behave, introvert, expert, feeling, sensing or intuitive and the and the other part is, You are wanting to, or some part in your career have got you to a certain level, that behavior of your personality displayed by the Myas Briggs has got you to that point.


[00:30:10]Heath: And if you want to go to the next point, then it’s is that same behavior, that same behavior that you need to get to the next point. Maybe if you are more extrovert and open and I know honest and everyone’s should happy, honest, but disclosing your future plans, maybe you wanna be a bit more the other way around and less opening to share those particular plans.


[00:30:34]Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love Myers breaks. I love all the personality tests as well. I kind of geek out over all those. . And I think, , to your point, it helps you better understand yourself so that you can, that you can apply your, your, your strengths and your passions in the right way. And, and, and, , I think for me, I, I do swing to the the introverted side.


[00:30:56]Wendy: I kind of consider myself an ambivert, but , slightly to the introverted side. And of course it doesn’t mean I. Talk to people, right? Yeah. Like, it doesn’t mean that that, that that’s not a problem. It’s just, , after, like, I, I did a training actually I facilitated workshop the, the other week.


[00:31:12]Wendy: And so for, for a few days, I, , it’s kind of on all the time from early in the morning until even into dinner time and drinks afterwards. And when I got home I was. Didn’t go anywhere for a couple days cuz I had to recharge . Yeah. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t do it, but it just, it just means I need to, to like, I just know I just need to do that after, after a training or a workshop.


[00:31:35]Wendy: I love facilitating. It’s a strength. That’s a passion of mine. But I also know that I just, I just need some time to recharge afterwards and there’s nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:31:45]Heath: So that’s a good self-awareness. And I think, so for other consultants watching, listening to this is like, , your strengths and weaknesses, , I’m the same.


[00:31:53]Heath: I can, I can speak for and facilitate workshops, but , I can’t do it all the time and people say, Know, but you did that really well. Can you do it again? I said, Well, maybe not to like immediately after I did a four weeks, what they call requirements factory back to back for four weeks. And That’s a lot.


[00:32:12]Heath: Oh yeah. It was like, it was an idea that was raised that because the project was at a well at risk of losing its funding that they needed to. After to India to do their vendor’s assessments and we need to give them requirements. And so it’s never been done before to get the requirements done in such a short period of time.


[00:32:30]Heath: And so we had to make a case, a business case to get people seconded to come to another building in the, in the neighborhood in Canary Wolf. And and so, and said, Who’s gonna facilitate it? And so, well, I knew the most about the process and said, it’s me. And then so we had to make a case and the program director was actually against it.


[00:32:48]Heath: And at the end and at the end of it, you, she proved and, and got it. We got it done. And then at the end was, , well done. He, he did this. I said, But you, if you watching in that room, at the time, there was two facilitators two, two note takers, and I was facilitating, but it was a massive group effort.


[00:33:06]Heath: And they said, But can you do it again? I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No. Yeah, no, it does. Like, yeah, it’s, yeah. If you’re good at it, But it’s not your maybe preference. Like it wasn’t really my preference. I would quite happily, , do the architecture and, and, but no, I’ve got a lead thing.


[00:33:23]Heath: And so yeah, if your preference, you gotta take the time out and recharge and then you come back and do it again. Absolutely. Yep. Okay. So we were covering change managers, change management, and that the probably one of the, to the earlier points that it’s one of the most maybe unrecognized or misunderstood role in, in programs probably a, a key an element or in, in a project.


[00:33:49]Heath: There’s, you, you can’t just just throw anything, change management or like, we had a, the earlier conversation about agile and what is agile and people say no, right? Yeah. So, okay, what you, but be helpful if you define one, what is change management in your organization and then what is a change manager’s role in that organization?


[00:34:07]Heath: And because you can get. Someone that does change management around business change and impacts and gap analysis. And then you get part of that role, maybe even a separate role communication. And, and, and so someone will say, Well, we’ve got change managers, but they don’t do communication well. We’ve got comms.


[00:34:24]Heath: And so, and say, Well, okay, you’ve got, yes, you need communication. And communication isn’t a one time event. It’s an ongoing event similar to 

[00:34:34]Wendy: to training. Right? Yeah. And, and I think, and it depend, it, it depends on the, the program and, and the structure, the kind of the infrastructure. In my experience, I, I had a change management team and, and where they really kind of focus their efforts were definitely starting out with like the gap assessment and, and getting a lay of land and, and then coming up with the plan.


[00:34:56]Wendy: In terms of the communication, they, they were helping to craft the message. They still had to interface with the communications team to get the, the message out very often. But, , the, the change manager, I think you, you have to, you have. Play a part in that because , when I take a step back and, and get started on any initiative, the first question I’m asking is mm-hmm.


[00:35:19]Wendy: , why, why are you doing this change? Yeah. Like, what is, what is that case for change? And how do you, how do you. Communicate that vision to others. I think once, once you understand that that’s, , that kind of sets the course and, and now you can start to explore the other, the other areas and, and I think it’s, , the people process technology is a great, it’s, it’s used a lot and I think it’s because it’s, it’s a good way to think about it.


[00:35:44]Wendy: So , I think the change manage, manage practice comes in to say like, who is affected and how, So it’s, what’s the baseline, but what are they doing today versus what do you need them to do differently in the future? Yep. And then the technology. What is, what is, what is the technology today?


[00:36:01]Wendy: How is that changing? Yep. And the, , putting it all together with the process piece of it too, to say, Where are they today? Where do they need to be tomorrow? So just it’s, it’s really marrying all that together and then charting a course. So it’s different than a project plan in my mind. Usually you have the project plan and then you have a change management plan.


[00:36:23]Wendy: They compliment for sure they’re connected. Yep. And they have to stay in lockstep, Right. Every time you’re, you’re changing a go live date or what have you, you’re having to kind of move the move around some of the key change dates that you’re targeting as well, and. And that that, 


[00:36:42]Heath: Go ahead. Yeah, the, that two parts there about the project plan and a a change management plan that is I think that part there about the change management plan is misunderstood and agree people will need to go, will go through a, a journey.


[00:36:57]Heath: And part of that journey is the communication. And the, the earlier you said about the change management, the project management plan is the structural changes, the hard changes, Right. And what we’re talking and you say about the process and technology and data, and it’s also the people part. And the, So really the project plan is covering the process, hard changes, the technical changes, and then of course, the data related to the, the both the process technology changes, but then the.


[00:37:23]Heath: The, the really, the people changes is in the change management plan. What’s that communication like taking ’em across the journey? What is their role? How’s that changing? What’s their role today? How’s it changing in the future? What’s training needs? Oh, we need to develop training to fill those gaps. Okay.


[00:37:40]Heath: We’ve sort of developed that training to fill some gaps. Start the, the training development early. So when the training is rolled out and it’s really the staff is trained, the technology and process changes are also, if we’re lucky at the same time, and then we can go live, but. 


[00:37:59]Wendy: Yeah, and typically the change management, it’s, it’s a work stream as part of the pro the project or program manager’s comprehensive plan that, that the change man manager is, is leading that effort.


[00:38:12]Wendy: So it’s, to me, it’s just, yeah, they’re, they’re connected. But yeah, you really need to, to have that focus and, and the communications doesn’t, doesn’t happen right when you’re about to go live, right? It really starts at the beginning when you start to, you start to kind of prime the pump, so to speak, and, and begin to, to say, , here’s what’s coming, and you’re speaking more high level.


[00:38:35]Wendy: And then, , the closer and closer you get, the more specific that communications are. And then, , we talked about the change agents. They’re a critical part of that. And they, they may they may or not, may not be your super users. So like as you’re doing the training, often you’re training those super users first, so they can then be supportive as you’re rolling it.


[00:38:57]Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. So all those pieces kind of come together, but 


[00:39:00]Heath: yeah, so that I, in, in my approach, I’d have early in the, in the statement of work, when you name your stakeholders and go, Okay, who’s the key stakeholders? And you’ll say, Okay, what’s the mode of communication they like? Or the, the senior exec wanna have a, a fortnightly or a weekly face to face for 10 minutes and that’s it.


[00:39:19]Heath: Or the program director, he wants to see, he just wants the three bullet points every day. He just wanna attend to stand up. And you go, Okay. The team, they, they or the organization we’re changing. They’ve got absolutely no idea what’s happening. They’re seen a shitload of, excuse my language, but I got of consultants rock up.


[00:39:34]Heath: And they go, they’re a bit worried about the jobs now. And so they will Yeah. So dinner for me, . Yeah, exactly. So the understanding that, so that, so I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, Saying this to the client that I’m working with right now. So I’m hoping they’re listening as, so get those two plans. We got the project plan, There’s no proj project.


[00:39:52]Heath: No, no change manager. And so tho these points we’ve just discussed is get your, or change people, which they haven’t got right now. It’s like, yeah, this is what you are saying also is, , this is gonna help those blind spots in the bright spots and, and ease that journey. Cause , we know that the pro the technical hard changes with the process and the technology and the data is not that it’s hard to screw up, but you, you can clearly define what a start and end looks like.


[00:40:19]Heath: But this people element that says, this is the tricky part, , you start this early. Yeah. Communicate early, communicate often. And I think you were talking about it, about the people from the business. You have the change manager who helps with the content that understands the people, and then there’s another part that helps with the dissemination of that content, right?


[00:40:38]Heath: Yeah, yeah. Some, yeah. Sometimes. I don’t know if you find that some people that get called into do communication and, Well, I had it for a previous client and, and, and the comms department, they said, Okay, we’ll write the coms. And I go, You’ll write the coms. Okay. I, I understand you can send the coms, but if you write the coms, if you’re sitting where we are sitting, how much do ?


[00:41:01]Wendy: you wanna be in the driver’s seat on that one. If they have feedback, great. Right. , But yeah, it’s, I I think it’s important that you’re, you’re in the driver’s seat on that one. Yeah. Cause you, , the, the case for change, that vision that you’re striving for, and because you’ve done an assessment of where people are today and where you need them to be, you’re, you’re gonna put a lot more behind that messaging.


[00:41:24]Heath: So that’s the, what’s in it for me, which kinda leads to, you started talking about the, the vision. So that leads on to our other point about your process. And I like, The, the, you see the magic word to me is the vision. I, I think the, It starts with the vision. Yeah. Okay. Certainly. It really does. Okay. Da.


[00:41:44]Heath: Okay. Clark, you listening to that starts with the vision? 


[00:41:48]Wendy: Yeah. Starts with the vision and then it’s, it’s the people process, technology and then, , some of the. Where I see some of the other things that I see companies kind of trip up on, if you will, is, and this is more down the line, but the, and I think it’s in the Coter Cotter model, where they’re, , one of the steps is don’t give up


[00:42:06]Wendy: Yeah. I see a lot of people give up, , like, Oh, we tried it and it didn’t work, and I’m like, Oh, well wait, , Yeah, yeah. What, what about it didn’t work? Let’s not, let’s not. Throw it all out. You’ve gotta, you’ve got to this is where the, the process improvement comes in. , I, I like the plan, do, check, act model for, Yeah.


[00:42:23]Wendy: When you’re kind of starting the, the, the actual implementation itself and you’re listening to your change agents and you’re getting the feedback loop to say what’s working, what’s not, you’re never going to, going to anticipate everything as you roll this out as much that, as much planning and, and , the needs assessment, the gap, gap analysis, the, the change agents giving you feedback, like throughout, until you actually implement, there’s still gonna be a few things that you didn’t account for.


[00:42:52]Wendy: I didn’t know. Yeah. Just like, it’s just gonna happen. So be ready for that so that you can course correct quickly. Yep. And don’t, don’t give up just because, , initially the, there, there were a couple of things that you had to tweak. I, I see that a lot where people, they say, Well, this tool doesn’t work.


[00:43:07]Wendy: I’m like, well actually I think it’s just the way. Your point, we approached it. Yeah. Yeah. , we just need to tweak A, B, and C. Yep. And yeah, so that, that’s another thing that I just, I, I, I wanted to call out because it’s not a one and done, . 


[00:43:19]Heath: Yeah, so the, the, the key point, the couple points you talk about, so the, the audience, if you, if you missed it, the plan do check act so that the framework there for feedback blue, the key part there that Wendy, you’re saying is that don’t hard code it, hard code it that you should expect change.


[00:43:36]Heath: So don’t yeah. So just have the awareness that what you are thinking and planning is likely to change. And, and I think the part there is, , the perception bias. Don’t be held bent on your approach and as should be open for change. Yeah. Yep, Yep. Okay.


[00:43:50]Wendy: Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully we’re always piloting.


[00:43:54]Wendy: I, I know not everyone always does, but that’s something i, I advocate pretty heavily for because it, it will be that stepping stone to help you catch some of those things you didn’t account for before you go full blown. There are times when you can’t do that, right? Mm-hmm. . So you, you’ve just gotta be ready and, and , especially in the first week or two, having the extra focus and attention on how are things going.


[00:44:16]Wendy: , let’s look at our success metrics. What’s the feedback that’s coming in and what do we need to to course correct quickly to continue to improve it? And then, and then make sure, of course, that the continuous improvement becomes just part of the ways of working. That, that’s another passion of mine, is just always figuring out how we do it better.


[00:44:37]Heath: Okay. Yeah. Continuous working feedback loops. But that, so, so on the, the, the first step that you do joining a program, the first thing you do is the vision. Make sure, Yeah. And, and what is it? Is there like a one word that is captures why you do, Is it the why? Is 


[00:44:52]Wendy: it it is the why? Yeah. It absolutely. Why, why are you, why are you making this change?


[00:44:57]Wendy: Like what? Why is, why is this important to the, to the organization and mm-hmm. , and then I, I think what follows that is, , what’s, what are the benefits that will come along with that? So helping people understand that why is super important, otherwise, they’re not gonna want to take the next step.


[00:45:14]Wendy: Right. And 


[00:45:15]Heath: that’s the w i I fm, the what’s in it for me. Yeah. So, okay. So when you’re coming up this vision, like I, I say to the, the, my clients is that we’ve really. We got the vision for the organization. So strategically the vision. So, and then that’s the why for strategic for the where the business wants the head.


[00:45:34]Heath: And then you have another, why I call it little why it’s the, there’s the why for operations. Those are the, I think those are the business benefits. So they, there’s a relationship for, That’s a good way to 


[00:45:44]Wendy: say it. I like that. 


[00:45:45]Heath: Yeah. Yeah. So some people when I say that, they say, Well, I didn’t say lesser important.


[00:45:50]Heath: I said, This is big as in this is this is the way the business wants to go and this is where we’re operationally how we’re gonna improve on a day to day basis, where you’ll see those changes. And so, With this top level, like I, I try, well that the goal is to get the senior executives to say, this is the future.


[00:46:08]Heath: This is what, tell me the future, your point to the why. What does that look like? Why we’re doing this. Mm-hmm. , Oh, we wanna be the number one border force in the world by 2022. Okay. That’s the why. Then that’s the why. , you, it’s your why. That’s your what’s in it for me. And then operations that turn around and say, ah, in terms of border force, I did a border force program.


[00:46:25]Heath: They’ll say, Oh, we want to clear a plane through border control in 30 minutes. So what does that mean? Oh, we want to have fuzzy logic recognition on all our passports and, and split second. That’s right. Okay. So you, so the operational benefits are slightly different to Yeah. The, But they feed each other if all these benefits are connected.


[00:46:46]Heath: Yeah, it’s, And, but what usually happens is the confusion is when you onto a project, everyone says, Well, I got my why and I’ve got my why. And so, Okay, there’s. Layers in organizations, strategic operations and projects. Yeah. When we say this, why, this is our strategic why when we say this, why it’s our operational why, and so we wanna be talking to the executives.


[00:47:11]Heath: What usually happens is that people move up and down, or the guys from executives come down into operations and say, No, this is what I want. I said, No, no, no. That’s a different conversation for you. And that’s from here, your strategic why. So how do you manage the different, I think that’s a part of another challenge is you’ve got different level of stakeholders up and down the organization have different, different wants and needs.


[00:47:34]Wendy: Yeah. And, and I think the key is connecting them. Right? So it’s, it’s, I kind of go to the I don’t know if this directly translates, but I, I think about from a six Sigma perspective, Y is the function of X. Mm-hmm. . So those, those little Y’s are, , as you cascade them down, it should all connect back up to that overarching.


[00:47:52]Wendy: Vision. And that means that, that you can’t just come up with your own why? Like everything, Yes. Or ho planning is kind of, it’s that concept of everything connecting and usually the what? The, at that executive level, it’s it. , if you put the metric next to it, it’s your lagging metric, right? So, , that’s, that’s your lagging metric.


[00:48:13]Wendy: And then, and then what are some of those leading metrics? And that’s where you can start to, to look at the, like the operational level. So what are, what are the operational or process metrics that are going to help you get to that ultimate why metric? Your why’s 


[00:48:28]Heath: a function of x I use I use vizo and , vision strategies, objectives are measures.


[00:48:33]Heath: And so with the strategy is, so what’s your people strategy, your process, technology and data. Each one of those has an objective. And of each of those objectives, there’s a measure of success. And then they will be just your strategic your strategic measures of to meteor success and progress towards it.


[00:48:48]Heath: And then operations have a similar one. But yeah, so the, the key part there is you need to, what you’re saying is measure the progress. And if it’s the, the plan do act check, which it’s the same thing. It’s you got to measure how effectiveness. The feedback loops, what are we doing? 


[00:49:04]Wendy: Well, you look at your baseline, what was the improvement?


[00:49:07]Wendy: Did it do what you expected it to do? Otherwise you need to, you need to make some tweaks and, and continue to, to monitor it. 


[00:49:14]Heath: Yep, Yep. I think maybe, do you see any issues there where people don’t do the review, don’t do the feedback, or they say, Oh no, we are not gonna follow agile approach, so we’re not gonna do all the ceremonies and therefore no retrospectives at a end of a sprint and, and then, so there’s no feedback.


[00:49:34]Wendy: Yeah. And so I do see it. Unfortunately, I, my, my, my mantra is I don’t care. I don’t care if it’s in an, you’re following an agile approach. I don’t care if it’s a waterfall. I don’t, I don’t care what what it is you’re doing. And it’s part of my dna, like, , even my home life, I’m constantly like, how do I do that better?


[00:49:52]Wendy: Yeah. It’s just, it should just be part of your, your dna. You should always be striving for how do we, how do we do it better the next time? And it, it comes from a place of let’s look at the process, not the person, Right? Hmm. And, and really explore what’s working well, Let’s continue to do that. And then, , what are, what are the areas that we can improve next time?


[00:50:12]Wendy: Yeah. Okay. It’s that mindset again. You used that word earlier, and I think that’s, that’s a part of it. 


[00:50:18]Heath: Okay. It’s theme there. The underlying theme there of the mindset. Look at the process, not the person. Absolutely. That one. Okay, so first step, we’ve got the vision, you’ve got the why, you’ve got everyone on board.


[00:50:28]Heath: We’ve got the what’s in it for me. And then the second one was understanding the benefits. , what, what is it you want to achieve? Yep. 


[00:50:35]Wendy: Yeah. And then I think from there it’s, it’s what is that baseline? What, what is the, how is, how are, what is the current state of, of, , you mentioned culture, so from a people perspective, what, what are, what, what is that cultural, What’s the temperature of the cult culture?


[00:50:52]Wendy: , where, where are people, Like you mentioned, , being in an organization where everyone. Big chunk of the organization was just laid off. You need to understand that. Yeah. To, to, to factor that in. What, what is, what are the roles today and how are they going to change? So to me, those are the, those are some of the people aspects, and you need to get it down to that, to the process levels.


[00:51:12]Wendy: So then comes in the process. What, what are those, what is the current state process today? And how does that comp, , what, what is the future state? How do you get people, how do you bridge that gap? How do you, how do you take them down the right journey? And then, and then the technology. And I, I purposely say technology lapse.


[00:51:31]Wendy: You, you mention a lot of people jump to the technology first. I agree with that statement. And I try , I try to, to hold that back because I think you, you first want to envision what that, what that ultimate future state looks like. And then what is the best technology that facilitates that? Yeah. 


[00:51:49]Heath: And so I just thought you started saying so, so.


[00:51:52]Heath: Listeners, are you listening there? Yeah. This is, Wendy just said, this is technology to support possibly the business or enable the business as opposed to the other way around where it is technology first and what does the business do? Or maybe shoe hoarding the business changes to suit the technology.


[00:52:10]Heath: That’s right. Yeah. Understanding, So understanding the business first, and then technology to support the business. 


[00:52:16]Wendy: Yep. I, I’m sure as an architect, it drives you crazy when people say, I wanna implement this, this application, or a solution or what have you, and it’s the wrong place to 


[00:52:25]Heath: start. Yep. Yep. And you also said about needing to get to the process.


[00:52:30]Heath: I’m a big fan of that. And you have process excellence project operational excellence, background. So, , I, I, I, I, I believe that when you do these massive changes now, regardless how big they are, organizational change, organization wide, enterprise wide is where you’re making the changes. Is in the process.


[00:52:47]Heath: And so, and then the part of, okay, when you’re making changes in the process, I think the best people to understand the changes are the people who do the process. And that’s when you Absolutely. Yeah. And you’ve got to, and that’s where the, to your words, what the change champion, change champion will be that the voice, the the representation, the conduent between the business and the project.


[00:53:10]Heath: And understand, help with your work with you to understand those problems and issues. But yeah, I, I like. Again, listeners in the process level, like we, we are with us, the client at the moment, they’re talking in the superficial, , in terms of architecture, let’s say conceptual logical, and then, , physical.


[00:53:29]Heath: And we could simplify that. And it’s, and they, so, and, and where these guys that come from the past, they took really high level conceptual. And I said, That’s very interesting, but you need to land this down in reality. And reality is in the physical and where the work actually happens in a process, but you don’t seem to wanted to document the processes.


[00:53:49]Heath: You wanna talk superficially about, Oh, we want these things called services. And so what is the service actually? Oh, it’s a thing that we will sell or do to a, a a customer. I say, Okay. And so what enables those oh, capabilities and what enables a capability, a process. Okay, So what does the process look like?


[00:54:06]Heath: Oh, we haven’t got to that far. So how do you, how have you defined your services then? When does a service start and end? Is it, and to that, to your point is we need to get to the process. Yes. 


[00:54:19]Wendy: Yeah. Whether you call process, the journey, the value stream, like whatever terminology, just what does that look like?


[00:54:26]Wendy: Yeah. It’s such a critical part of that. And, , having the, I think what, , once you, you have that, that process, that understanding of the process as well. , just adding onto the people side, like having the stakeholders, you mentioned the stakeholders as well. Making sure that you understand not only who, but I liked what you said earlier, , what, what is their preferred mode of communication.


[00:54:48]Wendy: Yeah. That’s a key part of it. And then comes the, , the, the measures of success. So, , how do you, how do you measure success? So we talked a little bit about that, getting that down on paper and, and ensuring everyone’s on the same page. and then, and then comes, , the communication, the training from there.


[00:55:06]Wendy: So I think, , when you, when you kind of work through all those elements, there’s a lot to it, there’s a lot to unpack mm-hmm. . And so it’s , as we’ve talked in the beginning, it’s, it’s, it’s more than just , just adding it on to somebody else’s role or job, especially in some of these larger transformations.


[00:55:21]Wendy: Yep. 


[00:55:22]Heath: I think that, that, you said earlier about the measures of success, and I think I, I probably the hardest part of most of these change transformations for me is to get businesses, to get the stakeholders to say what that measure of success looks like. Cause when they do, it’s like they’ve drawn a line in the sand now and this is how they’ll be measured.


[00:55:41]Heath: And they go, Well, if they don’t say they won’t be measured. And if they won’t be measured, they can’t get it wrong and they can’t be crucified for it going wrong. And, and so no one people are reluctant. I dunno if you found that, but reluctant to. 


[00:55:56]Wendy: Very much so. Or they might say, We don’t, we don’t have the data.


[00:55:59]Wendy: Yes. That’s the other, that’s the other kind of pushback I get. Yeah. So it’s like, okay, great. How do we get it ? That’s it. Yeah. Wait, let’s, let’s figure out how we get, we, we get it because otherwise how do if, if you are 


[00:56:12]Heath: successful? Mm. Yeah. And I 


[00:56:14] think 


[00:56:14]Wendy: that’s, and what gets measured gets done, right.


[00:56:16]Wendy: So it gets Oh yes. , it helps everyone align to, to that, that vision and make sure that we’re all kind of rowing. And I was in the rowing team in college, like, you, you wanna make sure that everyone’s putting their oars in the, in the water. Exactly the same moment, right? Yeah. So you gotta make sure everyone’s on the same page.


[00:56:35]Heath: I like that. The what you Yeah. The, the team effort. The But what gets measured gets done. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That’s like, that’s like if you don’t measure what you can’t, you can’t improve what you don’t measure. That’s right. Yeah. So, The metrics. And so this is the, the, I think the challenge with the change manager is to, to help facilitate that, to maybe create the environment and where it’s safe for the stakeholders, the business, the people to feel unthreatened to say, Hey, 


[00:57:09]Wendy: that is a key, right?


[00:57:10]Wendy: Sometimes people use, use the, the measures as, as almost as a weapon. And that’s not the intent. It’s just, yeah. , it’s to help understand how are we tracking and then, , I be able to course correct and, and say, Okay, hold on. We’re not, we’re not getting the results we’d expected. So what is it that we need to adjust to make sure that we, that we make and we set out, , we accomplish what we set up to, to 


[00:57:35]Heath: accomplish.


[00:57:36]Heath: Yep. So that’s a key point there is to help facilitate that conversation of the unthreatening we’re using it. Like it’s Star Wars we’re using for the power of good, not for be for evil. That’s right. . We’re not gonna beat you, we’re not gonna beat you over the head with it later. , we’re here to help you as opposed to, , not you, I’ve seen some transformations where there are some members of staff that are like intentionally trying to put a spoke in the forks.


[00:58:01]Heath: It’s like, because they don’t, they want, don’t want the change. Okay. So, Part of, So the current state, we’re doing the current state assessments. We under, we, we’ve got some people process technology technology last intentionally last cuz technology, right? That’s Yes. Yeah. . Yep. We’ve got our meters of success.


[00:58:17]Heath: We’ve built it in a way that is an unthreatening that the the business have openly disclosed this information. And to your point in which you talked a little bit earlier, if they don’t have it, how do you get it? And so that is a, I think the, the, the lesson there or the takeaway for the consultants among us would be to always be asking the question and don’t, the approach didn’t work the first time.


[00:58:40]Heath: Well, what was it about the approach that didn’t work the first time Right. As opposed to, Oh, well let’s just throw the baby out for the bath water. 


[00:58:46]Wendy: And I, Right. It’s my, Yeah. It’s one of my most frustrating that that’ll Yeah, we tried that before and it didn’t work. It. Yeah. Or why are you doing something?


[00:58:56]Wendy: That’s the way we always, that’s the way we’ve always done it. Those, those two things drive me a little nuts. I really strive to try to change, Change the mindsets 


[00:59:04]Heath: there. Yeah. That last one about, that’s how we’ve always done it. We never hear that. That’s like the big red flag. It’s like, uhoh, this is the way we’ve always done it here.


[00:59:12]Heath: Okay. And this is why you’ve bought in help to help you because you’ve always done it here. Well, clearly, if you’ve always done it here, you wouldn’t need the help , right? Yeah. Okay. Yes. All right. So you’ve got the current state, you’ve got the benefits. Now what comes next? 


[00:59:28]Wendy: So understanding the future state, what that looks like, again, from a people process, technology perspective.


[00:59:35]Wendy: And then from there you’re building, you’re building out that communication and, and training plan to align to the, the program. Program or project management plan. I like to do, , like the change on a page so that it’s very easy to see kind of like the key milestones. And, , we found that that showing how it relates to like the go live date.


[00:59:59]Wendy: And so helping people understand that you’re, you’re communicating ahead of that date. So as you change the dates just having that visibility I think, I think is helpful. But I think it’s, it’s, it’s now getting everything into that, into that change management plan and, and showing how it will progress over the life of the project or program.


[01:00:16]Wendy: Okay. 


[01:00:17]Heath: I think if it was missed, you didn’t, So it’s visuals, right? You are visually showing, , that’s a, that’s a key part. Plan on a page. Yep. Yeah. . Plan on that. 


[01:00:26]Wendy: Plan on a page and keep it simple. Like you’re gonna have a lot of, , the, the, we talked about the gap assessment and , the, some of those can be super, super.


[01:00:34]Wendy: Detail oriented and they need to be. But I think you also need to have those, , kind of the simple, simple visuals, again, depending on your audience, right? Like at the executive level that plan on a page, , the people, process, technology kind of summary. Just helping people get aligned to, , what is it that we need people to, to do, and how do we need them to think differently?


[01:00:57]Wendy: And then how will this progress over the life of the program? Yep.


[01:01:01]Heath: Okay. So the key part there is, and I’ve seen it a lot, especially we get business analysts that have moved into an architecture role. They have a natural bias of being in the detail. And yes, it’s hard to come out of the detail. Oh my goodness.


[01:01:16]Heath: Yes. Yeah. And so then they present to different groups. They present it in the way they’re familiar with, which is in the detail, and, and, and 


[01:01:24]Wendy: they speak a language that not anyone else is speaking. That’s the other thing I say. 


[01:01:28]Heath: So this comes back to full circle again. This is the bias. And, and so the change, there’s two parts of change management.


[01:01:34]Heath: There was the, the, the, the self awareness of yourself as the, the change facilitator and then the change the change management and awareness from the, the business that you are changing. That’s right. Okay, great. So you got the comp plan, you’ve rolled it out, you brought everyone on board, you developed the training, the, the communications, and so you got your users of success there.


[01:01:57]Heath: All happy days. 


[01:02:00]Wendy: Well that, are you talking launch? Cause now, now you’re, now you’re like your ears to the ground and you’re, you’re watching like everything to say, how, how is this how is it rolling out? How is it, how are things going? And how, , what do you need to course correct? What do you need to raise up and quickly get resolved?


[01:02:17]Wendy: I mean, there’s obviously a pro that, , that’s part of the project manager as well, but like the change, the change experts looking at, at it from that, that change management lens. Mm-hmm. . 


[01:02:28]Heath: Okay. And that be part of your earlier step about the plan do check act. Yeah. Yeah. Not only for the approach that you’re following, but now the, the result of implementing those.


[01:02:40]Heath: Yes. You’re ongoing monitoring, checking what you need 


[01:02:44]Wendy: to change. I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know about Yeh, but like there’s always something he didn’t anticipate. But that’s, that’s what I’ve found. So , so just be ready for it. Yeah, 


[01:02:53]Heath: yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this is the duly point again to the, the don’t hard code it, , look out for that.


[01:03:00]Heath: Okay. And so we’re gone live and everything’s happy days. You got you built in there. People processing technology if we’re good and lucky that we bought some brought, brought, built some form of competency capability for, of continuous improvement in there. So they’re monitoring themselves and, , self-correcting.


[01:03:18]Heath: So it’s all good. 


[01:03:19]Wendy: So now I think you celebrate success. You, you make sure you recognize the people that have done the heavy lifting and make sure that they, they have, they get the visibility that, that they, they deserve that. That’s. , that’s an important part 


[01:03:33] of 


[01:03:34]Heath: it as well. Yes. Yeah. That is , that’s a remission, a fault there of, of mine.


[01:03:38]Heath: I should have, , I, I’m big on that. Yes. You definitely have to celebrate and recognize the efforts of those people. Yeah, that’s, , I, I try to do that myself with, even when we get a document signed off at the start and say, Hey, , we’re well done. We took a, we took a pack to the board and they signed it off.


[01:03:55]Heath: What that means? You’ve got all these senior executives that signed it off who represent the different parts of the business, and they agreed, Hey, we did something that, Hey, Pat on the back, , lunch or donuts, or , what is a, that’s the first one, and then get that momentum.


[01:04:10]Wendy: I like that.


[01:04:10]Wendy: I don’t know that I’ve, I’ve thought about celebrating at the beginning too. I think that’s a, that’s a great call out. I have to incorporate that into, into my approach. 


[01:04:19]Heath: Yeah. Yeah. I I’ve, I’ve, I’ve guilty of when I was back in Canary Wharf, which was close of all the sweet shops and donuts, and I was I, and I don’t eat them , , so, and I’m gluten and lactose intolerance.


[01:04:31]Heath: I would be feeding everyone else. But , it, you gotta gotta do that. Gotta celebrate the success along the way through the process. Like the change management approach is, , take them on the journey. , celebrate as you go. Okay. Absolutely. The, the third point of what are you seeing in the industry?


[01:04:48]Heath: What, what’s, what’s, what are they doing well? What’s working? What is it that they’ve, they’ve learnt and from, from experience and they’re doing it well? And then what’s the current challenges they’re facing?


[01:04:58]Wendy: It’s interest. I, I think it’s , it kind of depends on the industry and it depends on the company.


[01:05:02]Wendy: I, I still, so one, I I mentioned this earlier, but I, I’ll, I’ll just, I’ll just say it again. One of the methodologies I’ve seen used more and more, and as, as part of both, , from a project management, process management and a change management perspective is, is tapping into the design thinking.


[01:05:21]Wendy: Yep. And I, I find that to be a really powerful approach cuz it, it goes back to mindset and, and saying how might we and gets people to step back from what they’ve already jumped to, whether it’s a process, technology or both. So I think that’s something that that. I see as a positive trend. It’s kind of infiltrating.


[01:05:41]Wendy: But I still see a lot of oversimplification and, and skipping over the change management step. Mm-hmm. . So I, I, , it, it, it, I think it really depends on the company and whether they value that, that skill set and mindset. I, I, I can’t necessarily say that there’s like one industry over the other that does it well.


[01:05:59]Wendy: I think it’s more down to to the, the company and the leadership. 


[01:06:03]Heath: Yeah. Okay. So oversimplification. And so what is the, the remedy for that is, it’s to say, let’s go back to basics. Let’s go back to first principles. I think 


[01:06:15]Wendy: it’s following the, the steps that we walk, we kind of walk through. It’s, it’s, it’s getting it, , e if you’re.


[01:06:22]Wendy: At the very least, at a, at a minimum minimum. And I do have like a one pager that, that I’m happy to share with people. But at, at the very least, like think through what is your, what is your case for change? How do you measure success? Who are your key stakeholders? What are the implications from a people process, technology perspective?


[01:06:42]Wendy: What, , how do you develop the communications and training plan? And then, , how will you celebrate success? I think it’s, , making sure that you’re at a minimum, you’re thinking through that. But if it’s a large program, I, I, , really encourage you to think about having a full-time resource on that program to, to manage through.


[01:07:03]Wendy: And that will help set, set the program up for success. I think you, , I’ve heard in some of your other podcasts, you talk a lot about the failure rate. Right? And to me, this is one. This is one aspect that can really help set that program up better for success. 


[01:07:19]Heath: Mm-hmm. . Okay. The change, Yeah, the change manager role.


[01:07:21]Heath: So to recap that is at a minimum to over, to over to, not say, compensate to, but address the oversimplification. Yeah. That we talked about that earlier. About, Oh, it didn’t work before, so therefore we’re not gonna try any of that, or we’re not gonna do it at all. But to, to, as you mentioned earlier as the question like I did a previous project and I’d said to them from the beginning, which they got a lot of very expensive consultants, and, and I said, Well, we’ve got this beautiful presentation and, and this is what we’re now gone to.


[01:07:51]Heath: This is gonna be our Bible and this is what we’re gonna, and I’ll go. And I said, Why are you doing that for? And I said, Because we’ve got this presentation. And I was going we’re gonna adopt a new modu operandi and this new modus operandi or new way of working for us is the, the first thing is question the question.


[01:08:07]Heath: We’re gonna question why you are approaching that. No, not because you’s a lean expert or a Six Sigma expert. Or even I’m not beyond questioning you. Question me, You, everyone is, No one is beyond questioning. And so the, your point there of if it failed once before question it, what exactly is that of you?


[01:08:26]Heath: You failed. And then so that part of the oversimplification is okay, so yeah, it may have failed. What is it that failed? Now what can we, And into the, your earlier question there about what could we, in the design thinking approach, how, how could we, or how might we, how might we, how might we I like that line.


[01:08:42]Heath: Yeah. You, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that. 


[01:08:44]Wendy: Yeah. I 


[01:08:44]Heath: love it. How might we, how might we and then so at the. We wanna ask the, you have a one pager, if you could share that, that’d be great. I’ll put the link there or link it to your profile. So they can find you, find that, Well, I’ll put all the links in there.


[01:08:58]Heath: Awesome. Your, your key stakeholders, your case for change. What does your case for change? And part of that is your, your why your key stakeholders. Who are they? Those, what’s the organization look like today in terms of people, process, technology. And then you’ll develop your comm plan, your comms plan.


[01:09:11]Heath: Part of that, I think is their your key stakeholders, the change champions, and then also put in that part, and you, you’ve already got it with the Celebrate. Celebrate, yes, launch. Go live. Fantastic. But also there’s some key milestones in between. And of course, if the program is bigger, then you’re gonna need to, , the scope is of the work has now changed, but also you have to put full-time dedicated resource.


[01:09:36]Heath: I think what some companies do, and they think that they can do these major transformations on the back of a fag packet. And then, and then they go, Oh, wait a minute. And the budget blows out and then they throw everything at it and they think the answer then is, if we throw enough money and enough people at it, this is goanna work.


[01:09:51]Heath: And it’s like chaos. There’s a no. Yeah. To, to your part. There’s a plan on a page and it’s, , these are the key elements. This is the order that you follow here and you go from there. Yes. 


[01:10:01]Wendy: Well, we’ll summarize still. Woohoo. 


[01:10:04]Heath: Alright. . Oh, okay. So there was Wendy all the way in, or Orlando and Florida.


[01:10:12]Heath: There’s one place that I I actually, I quite, I follow what your is it the Senator DeSantis the Santa? Oh yeah, the Miami. I think that guy’s a legend. I would just move to Miami just for that guy. I like his attitude. Yeah, so Wendy, we’ll wrap it up there. I dunno how long we went for, but it was awesome.


[01:10:29]Heath: Yeah, very, very, 


[01:10:30]Wendy: I really enjoyed the discussion and I, I think I picked up a few tips today, so I appreciate the, the interactions. It was really great time spent. Thank you so much for 


[01:10:39]Heath: having me. No, I know. It’s my pleasure. Thank you. So I’ll put the show notes. That course there’s the full transcript that is in there as well.


[01:10:46]Heath: The links to those, the books and the quotes that you mentioned, I’ll find them and put them in there. Okay. And your contact details had to get in touch with you on LinkedIn and then the company where you are currently working, if you wanna gimme another link, I can put that in there. But if for people wanna get a hold of you, they can get a hold of you.


[01:10:59]Heath: The details will be in the show notes. 


[01:11:01]Wendy: That’ll be great. I’ll probably just keep it to the LinkedIn just to keep it simple. Yep. And and, and I can give you the, the oh, the one, the change management on a page change management on a page. Oh, beautiful. Give me, if I can, can I take a couple days to get that 


[01:11:14]Heath: to you?


[01:11:14]Heath: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. This will probably go probably about a week or two’s time. It’ll go live, so you’ve got a couple 


[01:11:20]Wendy: days. Perfect. All right. Okay. Wonderful. Thank you so 


[01:11:23]Heath: much. My pleasure, Okay. Enjoy your day now in Florida. Yes, thank you so much.

Heath Gascoigne Business Transformator

Heath Gascoigne

Hi, I’m Heath, the founder of HOBA TECH and host of The Business Transformation Podcast. I help Business Transformation Consultants, Business Designers and Business Architects transform their and their clients’ business and join the 30% club that succeed. Join me on this journey.

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