Heath Gascoigne  00:21

Welcome to the business transformation podcast, where we talk about all things transformation, the good, the bad, and everything in between, and we’re going to have a slight change of pace to our usual program. This episode is part of our mission to showcase transformation experts around the world today. We’re shining the light on Mexico, a country at the heart of global supply chains with unique challenges and massive opportunities. With the recent tariffs introduced by the Trump administration, many companies are looking for Mexico for answers, but succeeding here isn’t about just showing up. It’s about understanding the culture, the networks and how to navigate transformations in a complex, fast, evolving market for complete disclosure, we have a very special episode featuring our partners in Mexico. When I say partners, I call everyone my partner, but this is an actual partner, the team from Innorendering, Alicia Jorge, Marco  Rafael and Ruben.

Heath Gascoigne  01:38

Okay. Now so Innorendering is perfectly placed for insights on the ground. They’re not just hands on the ground. The experts who live and breathe transformation. Ruben, who will speak from the team, brings over 30 years experience as a former executive for Microsoft Latin America, IBM and Ericsson, and has advised private and governments on major transformation programs. Jorge, also with more than 30 years experience in sales and consulting and also a safe agile SPC in Mexico, a rare credential, Marco has extensive hands on experience as a scrum agile scrum master and developing BI solutions delivery.

Heath Gascoigne  02:37

Rafael and Alicia have bring deep knowledge and sales, marketing and information technology into the Mexican team with their guide, hands on experience delivering projects across industries and culture critical for navigating the local landscape. Today’s conversation, we’re going to cover three key areas. One, first, what’s happening in industry right now, what’s working, what’s not, what’s the challenges that businesses are facing in Mexico. Number two, we’ll dive into in the renderings, approach to business transformation, how they help clients navigate complexity and deliver results. And number three, finally, we’ll wrap up with some reflections. If you could do that again, what would you do differently? The takeaways for our listeners. So let’s kick it off. We’re going to start there. We’ll go around the room, some introduction. Introductions, Ruben Marco, Jorge, Rafael, and last but not least, Alicia.

Heath Gascoigne  03:29

Good afternoon. Well, good afternoon from UK to Good morning in Mexico. To you there. Who should we start with?

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  03:41

Hello, people. Hello, I will start because I will be the main speaker, but I’m very happy to be here. Good morning from here, but good afternoon to you. Thank you for inviting us to this event, to this podcast. I think it’s very interesting to share what’s happening in Latin America, and everybody is able to know a little more about what’s here. Yes, thank you. Thank you for your

Marco A. Virueta  04:11

time. Team. Hi, good afternoon.

Marco A. Virueta  04:14

Is pleasure to be here with you in this podcast. Thank you. Welcome. Could have you here,

Marco A. Virueta  04:27

coming from Mexico,

Jorge Uriega  04:30

I am Jorge.

Jorge Uriega  04:33

Thank you very much for your time, for your experience. Is is important for us.

Jorge Uriega  04:41

You are our leader in this, in this team. Hey. Thank you very much. Congratulations for for the relationship with us.

Heath Gascoigne  04:51

 Oh, thank you. Thank you very much for for everyone. As I said on the introduction, Jorge is one of the very few SPCs in Agile.

Heath Gascoigne  05:00

Framework, so one of the highest certifications that you can get in Agile, if not one of the few in the whole of Latin America. So it’s an honor to have you here Hawaii. Thank you. Good.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  05:14

Bradford and Alicia.

Alicia Rodríguez Martínez  05:19

Yes. Hi, Alicia, hi. Hello, Heath. Nice to meet you again. Yeah, you too. Thank you for your share your time. I I’m sure this was will be successful for our company, of our country,

Heath Gascoigne  05:37

absolutely. So there’s a lot happening in Mexico right now, and you guys are at the front of it. So this is going to be very insightful for everyone. Thank you.

Rafael Cisneros  05:46

Hello everybody, and thanks Heath for the invitation. Glad to be here to share in our experience and talk about more about Hoba and the help of this tool for us here in Mexico.

Heath Gascoigne  06:00

Excellent. Thank you very much there. Raphael, okay, let’s kick us off. So Ruben over to you. So now for the context, I personally, I kept, I caught, I caught a lot of slack for this that I’m I actually liked, what was a fan of Donald Trump from the beginning, although some of these things he’s doing right now very questionable. So as a the man on the ground, as a team on the ground, the woman and the man, what is happening in Mexico right now that we don’t know about, or we can’t see?

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  06:34

Well, let me tell you. First, I will begin with Latin America, because I think it’s should be Latin American representation, not only in Mexico. And I think as a consulting firm, we see that Latin America urgently needs to improve global competitiveness. You know, that is our challenge, for us, and I think for everybody in the world, but for Latin America, it’s also an opportunity, because US is a big market, and we are close to them, so and I think a lot of businesses, a lot of enterprises, need to do a big transformation to be able To

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  07:24

I think Latin American general and Mexico in particular, are very well positioned to be good partners with the US, trade partners with US. We have been with the

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  07:37

Canada US and Mexico agreement, and for long time, I know that Trump is very controversial with not go one side or the other, but I know that everything that has a challenge also has an opportunity.

Heath Gascoigne  07:54

Absolutely,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  07:54

businesses should do the look that way, because if not, we are not going to be able to keep on going and grow as we need to grow and, you know, keep developing our countries in the good way.

Heath Gascoigne  08:09

Yes, yep.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  08:12

If you tell me, Okay, we have this opportunity. And I’m going to try to look at that positively. At it one key thing that the enterprise need to do, that businesses need to do, is that they need to be to do a real business transformation, a lot of change. I was, I was reading Tom north a little go. You know, he’s a great author about innovation and leadership and well, but he he told it was very interesting. He told that if you keep on doing what you are doing in the new environment, you’re not going to be able to have the same result you were doing. Yes, yes, absolutely. You need to really make innovation happen, and that means that you have to transform. And I think this is the message that we are getting into our our businesses in Latin America, and a lot of companies need to do that transformation. Now. It’s not only using technology. Everybody’s talking about AI, and you know that? That’s

Heath Gascoigne  09:22

the moment. Yes, you what is the term? They will say it’s the it’s when technology has got the new shiny object. At the moment, it’s AI, yeah,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  09:34

yes. But then as business architect, and especially because we have copper as our framework, we cannot focus on Insulation Solutions. We have to focus them. A lot of companies just focus from the you know, interest technology or the processes, or even sometimes only the people in isolated ways. What I think is. We should do now is to focus on integrated view, a holistic view, as hovatech framework allows us to do, and that’s why we have now integrated as our main methodology or framework, Hova we need to help organizations understand that is not insulated challenges. It’s been a holistic and integrated approach.

Heath Gascoigne  10:29

I like that you say better than me. Actually the integrated and holistic, as opposed to which I think you’re getting it is when you’re saying not doing real transformation. It is a lot of organizations, even one of the clients that I’m helping out right now on what will probably be the biggest project they’ve ever done. It’s all piecemeal in silos, and then they’re trying to, at the end, match it together, or mash it together. Go, oh yeah. Now we’ve got transformation. No, you’ve got minor little projects doing tactical little changes, and they they’re not going to those little technical changes of implementing and that what they have is a lot of technology, is you end up having a lot of technology with no transformation. And I think it’s what you’re saying, is that it’s not holistic, it’s okay. So you’re seeing that already. Okay, great, yes.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  11:18

Let me give you an example, you always talk about 70% of the of the transformations fail. And what we have discovered is that that’s true, and maybe it’s higher than 70% Yeah, unless, at least in Latin America, a lot of people think that transformation means only doing digital transformation. Yes, that’s not true. You need to understand that to become really digital, it means to have an integrated view, you have to do the new operation model. And I think that’s a core value of hovatech technology. I have to tell you that we, all of us, have a lot of experience in the market, 30 years or more of experience. That’s why we got together, because with our experience, we want to do something more with higher impact and to have a real result. And even all of us have done different projects, we were looking for that opportunity to discover a techno framework or a mythology that help us make a difference, and we discover it with your

Heath Gascoigne  12:27

book. Oh, thank you very much.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  12:31

And we, some of us, maybe, have recognized cork in that way, he was able to convey the message to us we get together. And that’s why, in that way, in rendering is the sum of different efforts that we have done in the past, make it now together, but around a methodology or framework that really helps us deliver because then we can show our customers that with this view, the results are going to be there. Yeah, and they know that a lot of people is failing in those and you know now it’s not only digital transformation. We have a challenge with the climate change, with social

Heath Gascoigne  13:16

change and ESG,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  13:19

the framework really makes help us make that with our customers.

Heath Gascoigne  13:25

Yeah, nice one. The the, I think there’s a part you’re talking about might have just started to get into about the naming convention that people have with business transformation. Everything that actually transformation. It only means digital transformation to some people. Transformation to some people. But then inside that digital transformation is this now coming popular, AI transformation, and which I watched, I think the market is seeing, and I’m particularly seeing of this client, is that it’s that same old thing again, is that they’re not looking at, is it holistic transformation they’re looking at is, it’s a system that we’re going to pull out and replace it with another system, but that’s just changing the technology. It’s not changing the business. It’s not changing the operating model. So what you get there is, you don’t get actual transformation. You just basically get a system, the latest system implementation, which doesn’t result in transformation. So you’re already seeing that already actually, I should say to the audience there for For context, and Ruben has said, the word innovation, Mexico actually rates quite highly on the international Innovation Index, doesn’t

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  14:35

it? No, we went to prove we are still trying to make where our government one of the good things our new government has is that they are really committed to make Mexico improving their innovation index. And that needs to have a new view, and you will see soon that we are going to go again with the. He joined Mexico, made in Mexico as a big brand to offer to the world, because we’re proud that we are really good, especially in Mexico, about our quality what we deliver in products and services. Then not a lot of people know that it’s been done in Mexico, and we want to prove that, but we want to put additional value through innovation. And yes, you say, I think there is an opportunity to improve our innovation all around Latin America. And talking about EA, I have to say something important about it. You know, everybody’s thinking, I everybody’s talking about it in Mexico, everybody. And to be true, a lot of people are using some of them are using it only for, like the search engine, a more powerful search engine. Yes. The difference is, when you really understand how to apply to make business transformation, yes, to improve the service to the customer who will improve the processes, and to prove the quality of work that people are doing. And there is a lot of concern about losing work, jobs and all that. But if you approach it with this holistic view and understanding how to build a new operating model that can leverage all the benefits that AI can do it, we will have a difference, and not everybody is understanding that. Yet, I think that’s a goal we have to do, and with your effort you have doing lately, I think you will make us, well, understand that and limit us that. I think your voice and your ideas that you have been reading and sharing with us are important, and I think people are beginning to get them.

Heath Gascoigne  16:55

Yeah, thank you. I think I think so too. The I think what you when I want to touch on that point you talked about as a country, or maybe the whole of Latin America, is that people don’t know that a lot of that innovation and production actually come from from Latin America or Mexico. Excuse me, that we had that here with Brexit. With with Brexit is the the UK will was confined in dealing only, mostly with the EU and as a result of Brexit, they could now deal with the rest of the world. And so the there’s two schools of thought over here was, is that, oh no, we’re losing access to this market. But the other school the thought was, but look at the other side of that market that we don’t touch. It’s huge. And so I was actually working at MHRA at the time, or contracted to them, helping them for that Target Operating Model there and right in the middle of Brexit. And so what they’re looking at is what is the competencies and capabilities they had within the organization that they were selling to a small market, although the EU is in a small market, but relative to the rest of the world, it is, and they can sell this skills and products and services now to the rest of the world. So that’s like the same as with Mexico was as a tight partner with the the US. But now is also, well, actually you’ve got and not, as you just said, not a lot of people know, and with the the Innovation Index is a bit of proof about that, is that in that Mexico is really high up on the worldwide, global innovation and index and so. So, like you said, I think culturally, I think that’s probably to your advantage in Mexico, is that the they are forward thinking, innovative thinking, of people by culture. It’s in their nature, as opposed to like here in the UK, it’s like they’re old school. They very conservative. There was a there was a culture maybe 100 200 years ago, in the creation of the railway. And I think that part of the culture, people remember it, but it’s not like no longer here, but you guys have got it.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  19:09

Yes, you know, when you talk about this is very interesting, because we have similar things in Mexico that you’re you’re showing about Brexit. We have been with this trade agreement with Canada and US for several years now, maybe 20 years now, and it happens the same. 80% of the exports Mexico, in products and services, still are to the market. Now, I don’t think if, I don’t know if Trump knew about it, but when he begins with his tariffs, uh, war, if you let me, he, he’s now getting a new collateral. Countries like Mexico and other Latin American countries are beginning to see that there are other markets, yes, and that there are other countries. Growing very fast, and that we can offer our services and our ideas and our way of doing things to them, and that that’s opening a new market and a new opportunity. Yep, I think that’s also make a company make a transformation. It’s about to say, yes, we are in we are well, our frontier is with us. It’s a long, 3000 kilometers long frontier, and we’re close. Is the near market then now we need to transform to be able to deliver our services and our products. Maybe India, it’s a great market, big money the Middle East, okay, UK, and we already have a good business with UK, export and import transaction with UK, but I think we can expand it so and in a sense, we have the same feeling to talk about UK for exit. We are still in the beginning of that, and it will need our people to also adjust their mind to see the world in a bigger way and now. But you have a point. We need to brand ourselves based on the traditions we have, because a lot of people know Mexico, you know, the Aztecs and pyramids and the there are a lot of new things. Our advantage is that we are a young country. And in this young country

Heath Gascoigne  21:34

is young, it’s

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  21:36

young. And also begin to see things in the new way new generations look, you know, they, they are they. They were born with the computer. They were born with the even the similar now and now we are. They are beginning to enjoy understand very fast how AI is. So that’s an opportunity for us, and I hope we are able, as a country or as a region, because I think this applies to Latin America, capture this opportunity. We shouldn’t let that opportunity go away, but we have to do it in a disciplined way. Yes, and I’m sorry to come back to that, but you know, a lot of people see the opportunity and they go for it, but then is not a long, lasting opportunity. Yes, yeah. And then there are limits. You know, we have to be doing this transformation, but we have to understand that we also, as a full world, as a commitment of humanity, begin to do a sustainable work. You see, one of the key problems everybody is having today, and it’s nobody want to really be talking about it, is, you know, climate in Europe, the heat wave is, it’s amazing. In Mexico now, we are getting so much rain that all our cities are getting flooded. Oh, wow. And even in Texas now, yesterday saw that it was a terrible problem. They lose people jump Ross, but you know, that’s why I think transformation is going not only technology, but the point of view, how you can get back to to sustainability is not only a good, safe professional, but he’s also very committed to the circular economy. And he’s always telling us, how can we reuse or utilize size or or redefine how is the use? And that’s, that’s if we apply that to the same framework with Coba, I think value increases in a lot of way. It’s just from, you know, you have to also help people develop and change them. One of your last podcasts, we were talking about change management, I have say I really enjoyed because at the end, you can do all this transformation, EA, digital or not, that people mind and people skills and commitment to make it happen needs to also be working with it. So I enjoy that too.

Heath Gascoigne  24:20

I think you think, yeah, I think you’re talking about the the episode there with Ron Lehman, yes, very dead. I actually, I, I do listen to the whole podcast. But that one the I actually, I really enjoyed listening to. Well, that was long. Was a long one, but a few points. There some great points you talked about there. I want to go back to go back to that one about said young generation. The Well, the young country is from New Zealand, and New Zealand is a fairly young country. And as a, probably a culture, I think this is what I see with transformation. And probably it’s, you know, there. The contrast Heath the UK is, this is a very old country, and there has a lot of history, and things generally take a long time to change, because everyone’s set in their ways. Versus New Zealand, you know, they happen fast. But the catch there is, is that, though, I think you’re getting to it about structure and the process, that, yes, be able to change and be agile and pivot, but that you need to do it in a structured way, otherwise you’ll be that 7% failure rate is there for a reason. Because they give an example with a insurance company that I’ve worked with, and their their first thing out of their mouth was about, I said, What’s the vision? And they didn’t have one. They had 120 OKRs, which, if we know the vision is, the vision is the first thing, and then that strategy, objectives and measures, the OKRs are the bottom half of that. So there’s no vision. Now their their whole excuse was that they’ve got 120 OKRs. They don’t need a vision which is tactical. This is technical changes. Now they see it. I said, what’s the plan? And they told, we wish for fail fast. I said, What do you mean fail fast? Their whole strategy was, let’s just try stuff and fail fast. I was going, what? And they had, like, hundreds of millions of hundreds of millions of dollars of failed projects. And so we tried that, we tried that, we tried that, I said, but I said, What’s your strategy? Fell for? And they said, it so fast. Off them, off their mouth, fail fast. Because, like, that’s just, you know, that’s not, actually not a strategy. That’s an excuse, that’s an excuse for not following process. And so because otherwise you must, you’ll be accountable for following a process that will get you a defined result that you’re aiming for. For you just trying things like this, you get nowhere. It’s like they call themselves innovative. Says, look, it’s, I think what you’re saying is it needs to be controlled. It’s instruction and it’s holistic. It’s not just technology.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  26:56

Absolutely let me, I will follow the point in my point of view, and we have discussed it as a team. Yep, you know, you need innovation to make a change now, but it’s not change only for changing. It’s something that you have to adapt to the new way of the world is and now it needs to begin with the vision and identity of what the business should be. As you said, you have to have a vision, and then you have to have the values and the principles and and very clearly what your purpose is. That’s not enough. People say, I want to do this, or my purpose is this. But then you have to develop, to build the capabilities, yes, to make it happen. And capabilities are made of processes, people, structure, resources, technology. And if you, if you don’t ingrain them in a discipline and structured way, in a way that you you make your new operating model really deliver those capabilities. You, you, you invested a lot of money, and you lose time and maybe the full opportunity. Oh, that’s one, one of the things we love about CoA, it, it the process makes you get that new operating model and these new capabilities in a very structured way.

Heath Gascoigne  28:27

Ah, yes. And you

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  28:29

know, you can do it first, and with your new technology and your new home abroad technology, it’s gonna be even faster, better and better package to make it happen to our all our clients. I think there is a huge opportunity. And I hope people that look at this, or see this, this podcast, understand that there is there the way, it’s already there. It’s just a matter of making the commitment to follow it, yes, and there are a lot of us helping them. You know, you have developed a good, how you say, amount of people with your certifications of how to make it happen and, and that’s, that’s one, one of the reasons we, we were so eager to become a good partner from covapi, thank you to either take this framework and this we’re not only building it, we’re trying to get it to the rest of people, because there is a lot of room to make a good job in this holistic view and this holistic transformation.

Heath Gascoigne  29:39

Well. Thank you very much. Now, to that point, you have on the call one of the highest ranking of the most popular agile framework software in the world, and is possibly the highest certification you can get, which is above train to train. Right so. And first of all, the team to have that accolade within, within the team, the competency, and then and using hober as their their framework like thank you very much. It’s a complete honor. Thank you. They.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  30:15

Let me tell you, we have that opportunity is one of our keys. But I think each one of us, and that’s why we are a team, has something to give. Marco has several years of being a scrum master and also being a person who knows a lot about analytics and how to leverage technology. The BI then Alicia, has been working for a long time. She was a former employee of IBM and other big companies, and she understand how to help customers understand what they need. You know, she knows marketing and selling. Raphael, it has a background of technology, and Rafael brings a lot of that understanding of the real balls and pools of technology, but with a new vision of making it happen for the benefit of the business. He has been a great technician. He is becoming a great salesman, too, and now he’s a great architect. We have been certified for that with you, and this is some value, something that we propose to our Mexico, Latin America, as something that you know, we just don’t want, we don’t know. Just recommend what to do. We work with our customers and clients to design the complete, complete business blockchain to ensure the transformation is successful and lasting for a long term.

Heath Gascoigne  31:41

Yep, I think that’s that. That’s the part where I think, for myself and bobitech, we go in and help clients, they’re quite a surprise when we say, actually, our job is to get out of this job. Our job is to empower you to build the competencies and capabilities so you don’t need us. And they go, what I said, Look, you know, you did say when you wanted to bring someone in to help, you did say consultants or contractor. You didn’t say full time employee. Our job here is not to stay as long as possible. Our job here is to build up the knowledge and competency in your team, so that we can leave and then you guys can do it on there. If you have another project you want help with, we’re happy to come back and help you, because we know your business, but we’re not here to stay forever. And that’s the part we talk about holistic and embedding and really enabling the and getting results. So actual results, those are results, not which I see my unfortunately, colleagues will produce the market picture. You know, the reams and reams are beautiful, colorful presentations. That was very beautiful, like that. I think if you talk to Raphael’s point of, well, your point you raised for Raphael, saying that he knows the detail of actual, practical implementation of technology, as opposed to you’ll get the marketing side, which is a beautiful presentations that’s really interesting. But how do you implement it? Well, you bring in someone like Raphael, who’s done the detail and implementation, and go, that’s how it’s implemented, and you actually implement it, not just show pretty presentations that mean nothing. Don’t call that architecture, but yes, and I don’t know where I haven’t said it, and you haven’t also said it, but to the audience, not only our partners here have they are more of a with hope of than me, probably, but they are also the, let’s say, the co authors of the Spanish version of the business transformation playbook, the they are actually translating. It’s almost finished. Actually, they’re fully, fully trans translated already. The guys have told me just before the start of the call here that it is all fully translated. They’re now just putting it into the book. So not only are we talking to our esteemed partners in Mexico, but also the co authors of the Spanish version of the book. So they have, they have, if you talk about studied the book to the eighth degree. They have not only studied the framework and the methodology the practitioners of it. They have many years, as Ruben was saying, of implementation, but also they translating it into Spanish for the Spanish Latin markets, Latin American markets, so that they understand it from the recipients point of view. So, like that is a great honor and a privilege that you have done that for us. So thank you very much.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  34:40

It’s been a privilege for us to work with you in that sense. We think your book is a really valuable contribution to to the business side and to make things happen in a really successful way. And maybe, as you say, we are really in love with your the. The framework, we will believe in it. We see the value it has. And let me just remember two things when you begin talking about this. In this moment, we are not we are here to work with the customer, and we are and the framework helps you make that working, because let them be prepared to keep on going with a good business architecture. And you know, at the same time we we try to make it as fast as possible, because time to market is something that people need to have. And if they think a lot of people, when we come to them, and we talk about the way this is done is it will take a lot of time, and we say no, because the framework has a clear path and a clear set of blueprint building blocks and blueprints that will allow those to go fast, and now, with the help of IE, we will really make it

Heath Gascoigne  36:07

faster or faster in that sense, yep, people, is not unrealistic.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  36:11

It’s also how you say integrated. It also has all the building blocks of the blueprints needed to make it happen. It integrates process with technology and people and resources, and even talk about change management and culture. And we were joking that we, if it needed, we will also deliver leadership, course, because that’s something commitment of the head is very important, and that’s something we have. I can say of one key success factor of a project is the commitment of the leaders. Yes, and that’s something all of us know, and I’m good say that some of us think that leadership means not only to deliver, you know influence, but you have to be an example and also support your people in becoming leaders. Is not how many followers you have, is how many new leaders you build. Yes, organization and this methodology, if you are, you’re crediting the organization. Without you have a big group of leaders following in the business side.

Heath Gascoigne  37:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now I just want to bring you back to a point where you talked about the I think the the communication is, I wrote it from the beginning of the three else layers, language and levels and that different strategic operations and implementation, they speak a different language and a different level of detail. The problem with transformation is they all speak a different language. No one’s speaking the same language. And that’s why I wrote hobo, because it speaks the language. It’s the common language between the three of them. And, yeah, that’s, you’re right. It’s, you know, depending on what, who you’re speaking to there is the reference models for the strategic and then there’s operations of building blocks, and then implementation is it got the blueprints, and so depending on the audience. But I like what you said about leaders is that I think actually Ron talked about it on the last podcast. Well, maybe reminded me of it. You get sponsors that are put in the position who don’t really want to be sponsors, but they’re told they’re going to be the sponsor, but they don’t know how to act and behave as a sponsor. And the sponsor is the chairperson, the leader, the for the beacon, the Northern Light. They’re the one who’s champion. They are the day to your word. Just in the example, what happens is when you get the wrong sponsor, and then you know, they don’t have that leadership anymore. So I think we might have something there. There Ruben. Nice one. Okay, now, so we got this the first question, I

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  38:54

think the most emphasized when you talk about robotic and I would you say language is very important, but for us, there is a key word that makes a big difference with covert. It’s alignment. This is great of alignment. This is the great framework. Love me as you say. It aligns every level. It aligns the interview of the business, view of the organization, and aligned to that is the it’s a it’s an element of success. And I really think, and you know, when the the alignment, especially for a leader, when they they see this alignment, they get passionate about it. And they really begin with, not only great champions, but also factor of success to make

Heath Gascoigne  39:49

it happen. Yeah, yeah. I like I like it. Thank

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  39:52

you. To your point, to what you were saying, The

Heath Gascoigne  39:56

like you see is the business view that’s. I have, we have on everywhere, is the tagline, business led digital transformation. For a reason is that it’s the business driving the change, and technology is the enabler. It’s they work hand in hand, and they are a much needed enabler and partnership. But what I see, and I think we’re saying the same things. Is when you end up either leading with technology or focusing on your technology and just doing technology, you don’t get the transformation. It’s not integrated, it’s not holistic, and definitely not long learned, not long living. It is short, temporary. And of course, what happens next? The next version of the technology comes along, and then, if we were forever just changing technology, no transformation. Some some person who sold them the technology is doing well, though, but the business themselves is not changing. It’s not improving. It’s spending a lot of money on new technology. But yes, so integrated,

Heath Gascoigne  40:57

holistic

Heath Gascoigne  41:01

transformation is what you’re focusing on. Okay, so if I sum up, bring it back to the to the rich. The first question, the original question, was about the insights of what’s happening in Mexico. And so it’s very similar the situation with, I draw the similarities with Brexit and with opportunities that Brexit presented here, for the UK, for the rest of the world. And I think what you’re saying with Mexico is also seeing the same things. So that’s a probably a trend that we’ll see more often. And I think what you’re saying there, Ruben, is that with a holistic, integrated approach, that Mexico and Latin America will be well placed to take advantage of this change. And you know, whether it’s a force change because of the tariffs or some other means and what ESG is coming. ESG in Europe is pretty strong, and I think it’s a growing movement in Latin America, or maybe also Northern America. So, so there’s some opportunities there in terms of trends. Now, can I bring you on to is there? And I think we started to get into this as we normally our second question, what is you have a particular approach that you follow. How do you do that? What do you do? What’s your process? What does it look like? Can you walk us through how you deliver Agile transformations for large enterprises in Mexico, and then from start to finish, what does that look like? Yes.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  42:34

Well, first of all, we, as I told you, all of us, have been working with transformation and making our companies in different projects in different ways. We have experience in in banking, we have experience in in manufacturing, we have experience in logistics and supply chain. And at the beginning, all of us had good and bad experiences. Yeah, we have learned and we have those process, but when we found this, his framework, what we are doing is we go with them and we well, first, we evangelize about the business transformation playbook and the framework, because this is helps them understand better. And then we, we go there, and we once, we tell them the process and the and the how we will make things happen. Yep. And now I’ve seen they get interested. They they bite. We don’t need to sell it. They buy it, because when they understand that this is a different way to approach and that this is something that will allow them to cause the achievement and success they want to do, that’s a complex difference. We have seen that in organizations like bank. We had an experience, and some of us work together. In that graph on that we saw a bank that they were looking for a, you know, business, new business model. They were trying to compete in the current banking model with a new business model that really makes them different. But they were tied to all technology. They were tied to legacy systems, these elements that keep them doing the same thing and not getting the result. New results, yep, and well, they saw the model and they bought the bottle of another European bank. I’m not going to tell the numbers and privacy. But then they took this idea and they brought the idea and they asked God to help them make the change. And due to the this approach, this is a great way to make it happen in nine months. Much in transformation was done, wow, and the success of the bank was outstanding in the market. Has been a stunningly market. Now, there are additional challenges now, because now they have to implement EIA. But you know, there it was a great transformation. It was changing the branches. Was changing everything you know, the way they process, the internal core systems, training new people. Change the way the branches were used, more devices, ATMs and all that in the market, it was a huge they were able to make it because they were there was commitment. There was a clear vision of what they wanted to get. There was mythology and discipline to make it happen. And now let me give another example. I’ve saw Marco implement analytics. Gives a great guy in analytics, and he was able to implement in another bank a full dashboard that clearly brings results. You know, a lot of people do analytics because it was a fan before AI, everything was analytics. And I think visualization of analytics, yes, but then when you see the dashboard that they were able to build, and it was with corecast support and all that, you see the difference of really getting, as you say, you guys have okay for cars. But then when you have a dashboard that really is aligned with your business strategy and your is even in a specific area strategy, then you get a great result. Now there are opportunities. Now there are a lot of opportunities. We want to help the the maybe the innovation system of Mexico to improve. We want to help in the stock exchange and finance, but we also near shoring is a great opportunity for Mexico, even with the assuring Yes, other countries near shoring is something that we cannot forget, because we are the closest group of countries next to us, the biggest market in The world. So and that means that our people need to make a good transformation. So manufacturing is also an opportunity that was we have captured in the future. And I would say we have this property that are interested in the education sector even now, especially with AI, universities and schools are beginning to say that how they will use these leverages and how they will change their business and Well, I hope we can help them make it happen. Okay, I sure that cover tech is the right way to do it, but I hope we have the opportunity, and we we get some of those projects,

Heath Gascoigne  48:06

I’m sure you will So, ladies and gentlemen, there’s a few NDAs there should say that. So Ruben has to speak in a little bit of code, because we can’t say names here. So so I got the I got the picture that. And I think if we were to say, Follow hope is approach, at least you’ve got. One is always the vision. Is the thing that you’re getting there. First you make sure, in terms your your So, you know, step one is focus is around our future. Was a vision. Look like two is control, and you talk about stakeholder sponsors, so they’re always making sure they’re in place, and then you’re doing the current state assessment, and need use words before competencies, capabilities, your people process technology data, and you had culture in there as well. So you’re doing and so it’s, it’s like what you also said earlier about it’s not to say you’ve got the whole the book or a book, and you’re applying it like, like joke around, bang people over the head until you blue in the face. It is. You apply appropriately and proportionally for the project. It’s not one size fits all. It’s have a have a look at the the context. Have a look at the need. And you said the word yourself about speed is that you’ve got to get to market quickly. And so if you’re going to spend a lot of time on projects doing transformation or, you know, understanding the current state, you’re not moving any faster to deliver the changes you want by doing all that activity. So so your process is that you would apply appropriately and proportionately, which we talk about on in hobar and Hobart tech, the the methodology for the context. You’ve got the right people, you’ve got division in the place you’ve to the current state assessment, probably some solution options about how to address those pain points across the user journey. And you’ve you’ve mentioned some the banking clients, um. Um, so you also got manufacturing in there, and there’s near shoring. I did a couple of near shoring projects with big bank here. Well, a couple of banks, but one of them being RBS, bringing some roles onshore from offshore, and also the other way around offshoring, so that those projects are in itself. They have complexities about time zones. That one there was from moving roles from London to one part of India. There’s two parts of India. One works on GMT time. Another one works on ist time. India Standard Time. And if you’re unlucky, you’ve got the IST you’re dealing in, and that’s a different time zone. So it’s not like you’ve got a true back office. It is the next day you find out about if they were able to action when you wake up in the morning and and they you got a one hour crossover in the morning, and so you can have a catch up. And then there’s nothing all day, and then until the evening. So it’s a hard business model then, but possible So, and then there’s the education. So there’s a lot of activity happening in Mexico right now. So you guys well positioned. So your approach is, I think I got a good idea now. Okay,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  51:12

so just let me, just before finishing that, let me give you another example. We have found that there are other services companies that need to help, and that’s why Alicia is also with us. You know, he has a lot of experience with marketing, and now, if you apply to a lot of marketing companies, they need to be transformers. And nobody sees this site. But when you understand how our the Hova framework, can be applied to this kind of services companies, you also have a good value, and we need to leverage that with experience. And as you say, it’s a matter of having this here framework, but also to be open to make the changes and adapt to the kind of business and of processes that make need to be done. You know, it’s very difficult, and that’s the value of carbon and integrated and diverse community to help you make a difference. And I wanted just to highlight that,

Heath Gascoigne  52:22

yeah, no. Thank you very much. That is definitely, you know, you got two types of groups, the homogeneous and the heterogeneous groups. And those ones that generally do well or better are the ones where they are mixture so that they not don’t suffer from the group think when everyone thinks the same, nothing else changes. Any new ideas that introduced bashed away because they’re different. But when you’ve got a heterogeneous group from beginning, everything’s different to start with, so they’re more welcoming for change. And so yes, everyone here has bringing different elements to the team. So fantastic. Well done, before assembling the team like that. Okay, can I ask you one more question there, on the on your approach there we’ve talked about a little about, what do you think the role of relationships are? I being called for roles in the States, and I see there with relationships is it’s they are of a culture where they really like to look you in the eye, shake your hand and go, Can I trust you? It’s how was that with with Mexico? What’s How? How is racial relationships fit in the hierarchy of the things that we must have when we start a project?

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  53:35

Well, if you if you talk about Latin America, you need to understand that for Latin American people, and especially, I think, for Mexico, but I think it’s a regional element. Relationship, it’s all about Mexico. Relationship means

Heath Gascoigne  53:59

trust, okay,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  54:00

and you know you cannot build a good business, and you will not give your your projects and your problems and your challenges and work with somebody if you do not get that trust in the middle. And I think that we that’s why we built them. And you see Mexico, we make a joke. We think that we are still competitors, you know, you talk about Mexico, the word compadres is very important, okay, compadres is the Godfather that you get in Mexico. Really, the business is gone between competitors, you know, because relationships are very, very important, yeah, and that’s why it’s also important to tell everybody who you are, what you do, let them know you better, and show what you can do. And that’s something we try to do in every. Relationship we have. We value it very high. I think people in Mexico lead with it. Relationship is part of our main DNA. Oh,

Heath Gascoigne  55:13

wow. Okay, so it’s very important, because I I’m going to paraphrase and repeat back to in case the audience missed that there. I want to myself press the point there about you said the words relationship means trust, and so if you have no trust, that you’ve already got no relationship. So there’s, there’s, I’m going to say, let’s just pause there for for a reflection, because there are some people out there that, and unfortunately, our transformation market, who are going to get a rude awakening that have ruined some trust. So we won’t talk about that right now, but there’ll be, it’ll be now and then in the coming days, about, you know, I am the author of this framework in the book, and the creator of it. There are some people who have, who have taken it upon liberty and claiming some rights that don’t belong to them, and I think, and I feel sorry, because that’s now gone to impact the trust that people have with them. And that’s a shame, because I think you’re as you’re saying that this business is built around trust. They are big organizations. Are entrusting in us as consultants to come in as the trusted partners, the the trusted advisors, to help them through the change, through the organization, the struggles that they’re facing today, to the the land of the luxury or life that they want to enjoy, the future they want to join. And they entrusting in us. And so you need the trust, and you definitely do not want to do anything to unnecessarily ruin that trust. So I like what you’re saying there, and I fully believe in it. And so I can’t wait till my trip out to Mexico and we can build all that trust.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  57:01

Well, there is something important about trust in this relationship. Sometimes, if you don’t know the people, you will look for their credentials, and that’s something important you have in your in your hand. We, all of us, got certified with also playbook. And the transformation framework? Because being certified, it’s a credential that allows us to build trust. Yeah, they can. They know that you we study it, we have practice it, and then you test us to make it Yes, and that’s a great difference, you know, I one thing, what we have really love about your your justification process, is that you have to make it happen. You have to show that you know how to do each reference model, each building block, each blueprint, and do the review that, and then you test it and make it sure that that knowledge is there. And that’s when we I see that information, that certification, I we all believe that this certification make us a very trustable person, and we have a credential to open doors and to be trusted. So it’s yet the relationship is the knowledge, but also the assurance that you have been really certified in what you do, and you have been you know what you’re doing. You I always say that you know how to do it. You know what to do. You know how to do it, and that you have the affection or your emotion and passion to make it happen. And I think in rendering we do that we, all of us, are very passionate people. I’m sure that my team’s mates are really unhappy that they cannot speak and do the conversation right now, not because they don’t know how to speak English, but they are not so fluent, and they decided that let me talk, and they know that I’m not talking so but the truth is that the patients there, they are. They trust their abilities. We have shown that that works. We have the experience, and this is a way to build this trust, and trust, it’s something that you have to show and we try in every step of the framework through delivering outcomes, yes, that really make things change, build that trust in every step done through the framework. And that’s also a big, big differentiator. Yeah, thank

Heath Gascoigne  59:47

you. Thank you very much I like so I’m gonna thank you very much the I’ll pay the back about So the simplest, like, I like to always break things down into simple elements. It’s the. Your the trust is that you know what to do, how to do it, and you have the intent to do it, which some others would, and they they have the ability, they know how to but the execution is not quite there. But so I’m fully on board with that. Now thank you, and thank you for the kind words. Now the so we’ve got the general approach, the I understand what we what you do, the relationships is key, key relationship and trust is almost inseparable. They are one in the same now, in terms of now as reflections, not the question number three towards the end of the podcast is now having done this, and now you’ve been head of divisions for Ericsson, IBM, Microsoft, for for Latin America. Also worked in America. The team themselves have years, decades, not quite, as I was going to say, as many years I’ve been on the surf. I’ve been on this for a few more years. And probably what I look it’s a really flattering camera right here. Makes takes about 20 years off the so you the amongst the team, you have probably over 100 years of experience, collective experience, on the team, on on transformations of all sizes, all across Latin America. So the for question number three, having now done this for decades, you know, if you could do it all again, the things you know now versus that when you started, if you could do it all again, differently? What would you do differently?

Heath Gascoigne  1:01:36

Learn, cover first. Oh,

Heath Gascoigne  1:01:40

you’re too kind.

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:01:42

If I would have had this framework

Heath Gascoigne  1:01:46

20 years before I had

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:01:50

the my level of success would be much harder, more, you know, and we think, I think we share all that together, as I told you, we have a scarce we have to learn in the difficult way. You had to learn that sometimes you push technology too much and you didn’t pay attention to the capabilities or to the strategy as much as you saw and well, is not something you learn a lot. Yes, yes, you don’t lose, but you learn a lot. But this is also painful. And, you know, avoid these painful experiences, doing it with a framework that takes you step by step, gives you your IT TAKES by your hand and brings you to the table, which is very important, and something that it makes different for us. You know, Latin America, even if we use think about Latin America, is not an homogeneous region, not even Mexico. You have several regions of different different ways of doing and thinking, and even the word, sometimes even in Spanish, means different things in different places, and you have to be adapting to those. The framework allows you to go that way. So if I would say that I’m very happy to have had the experiences I have had, I would love to have the framework Yeah, I have to say that until cork and I began to discuss that we need to prove a better framework of work in our our new company probably came to our mind, and then we begin this effort, and It’s already taken some gears to make it and make a foundation, but I think

Heath Gascoigne  1:03:47

in the sense the

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:03:49

integration of the group is, I think the right out of diversity, we understand that in the country and in the region, There are differences that we have to understand and be aware and try to integrate to the process, because as as I told you, you have to align, yes, the all the business is or business to the strategy, but also to the culture, not only inside The organization, but outside your market. So every market has a contest, even the competitors are not saying the same. The a lot of rules and laws are not regulation, simply saying, yeah. So in this region, you need, yes, we have a lot of we we share a language. We share a lot of our values. We share a lot of commitment to relationship and to family and to values from all kinds, including, in a sense, there are nuances that you have to learn to manage and be adaptive to it. And then that’s benefit of how. In different backgrounds or different experiences, and trying to work. And then I have to say something

Heath Gascoigne  1:05:07

that is

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:05:10

to talk about collaboration is a very easy worth, but it’s not so easy to make it happen. Yes, as you say, you need a single language or a common language, you need to listen to the others, to negotiate and to understand that sometimes you have to to give something away to make it better for the group. And it’s not that we don’t have problems. We have problems and we try to solve them in a good way, even as a team. But then you will find the same problems in that, in a in a project, in a program of transformation, you need to be aware that you need to listen, to look for them, prepare to confront them, and to openly and with communications and the intention of making different consensus and building success into all of us, that’s that’s the key to make it happen. So in my sense, I would like to have, just answering your question, what I will do differently, but obviously I will have a much more early in my life. Second, I would love to learn how to be more patient, listen more,

Heath Gascoigne  1:06:30

ask more,

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:06:32

instead of trying to talk so much. Okay, I say that I do the talking for all my team, but they do the listening and the questioning and the reasoning, I would say, and that’s the difference. When you integrate a group, make it good for our customers

Heath Gascoigne  1:06:49

or clients.

Heath Gascoigne  1:06:50

Nice one. Okay, I’m going to play back. There’s Ladies Gentlemen, you’re getting the collective 100 years here of collective knowledge and insights that could save you years of pain, but also, you know, years also of gain, of value that you add. So yes, it would be great to have a holistic, integrated framework. I wish I’d written it earlier too, myself, actually. So there’s that, I think that the summary, and you’re in the right space. Right is that you are walk, working, walking, living and breathing, being agile, that you are adapting to your environment. You are understanding as the market moves. You’re not in a like I say. You might have heard me say a few times that your transformation isn’t in A island. It isn’t isolated from others. It is so integrated with others. So you talk about their competitors, not just your immediate competitors, but external competitors. So that’s an MBA speak. You would say, you know, self awareness, like your personal self awareness, but the company self awareness. So even maybe it’s a team, you do, you have your team culture, awareness. So you’ve got your micro and your macro level, you are conscious about that. I think as you’ve got the way that you’ve put the team together, isn’t by accident, it is intention that you’ve got subject matter experts from different areas. You’ve got the holistic value proposition covered. You’ve got strengths and different areas. So that’s great. And everyone’s everyone has got a different strengths, like, if you’re the you’re the spokesperson. So the lesson there is, is that you’ve got to look for a holistic method that you can apply and does the things that you needed to do, those holistic, integrated speaks of different languages that that you yourself are adaptive, that you don’t know when you’re not saying these, well, put words in your mouth, is that, and correct me if I’m wrong, but you don’t have all the answers, but you’re willing to look for them, and then you’re open and to open, to challenge, and I think, from a leaders perspective, and I see that with with several clients and even sponsors that are, you know, I end up facing off with and against even, although I’m supposed to be, you know, on the same team is that they’re not willing to change. And it’s like, well, I had that with the Ministry of Justice. I’ve used this example a few times. Is that they wanted that a project that ran for two and a half years, they spent over 200 million on it, and they killed it because it got nowhere. They didn’t get anything, not even a current state assessment. There was a complete waste of time. And then they brought me in and said they wanted me to do it exactly the same way. I said, if you want me to do exactly the same way, I got news for you. It’s not going to be a different result. It’s going to be exactly the same result, which is another 200 million in another two and a half years wasted. So So there you have a leader that doesn’t want to change. It’s like, you know you gotta so what you’re saying from the beginning is you’re adaptive, you’re you’re open to change. Open. Challenge so fantastic. And I think the key there, and a lot of leaders will probably not have, that is the patience and that either to have, they’re willing the self awareness to wait a minute check in on yourself and go, Okay, you know, am I being fair or however it is. But I think, in summary, you’ve pulled a great team together. You’ve you’re well positioned with Mexico at the moment, as the UK was, and the similar situation with Brexit, that there’s a national change not imminent. It’s right here right now. You have competencies within the country. However, the country themselves may not, as it was with this country. They go, Oh no, the sky is falling. We don’t have access to the the EU market. Go, wait a minute. We now got access to the rest of the world. A lot of people didn’t know this, that the as being a member of the EU, you were restricted to dealing mostly with the EU you were, you were restricted from dealing with the rest of the world. You are not able to enter into trade agreements with other countries, Australia, US, Canada, Japan, big, big countries. And so you weren’t able to do that. And then so we, like in New Zealand, you call that. There’s a culture of, although this the young and innovative, there’s also a culture like, I know, so if you have the expression, but crayfish in a crave spot where they crave craze. You know, the way that the crayfish pot is made is that once you fall into it, you cannot get out of it. And then if there’s anyone on the bottom or the pot, they pull you back down when you’re trying to get out. So the same thing is, uh huh, yeah, that there’s another expression, which they call the tall poppy syndrome, is that we the tall the tallest Poppy gets chopped off first because it sticks its head out. Yeah, yeah. So New Zealand has all of that, so that when you try to get out of the clay pot like it’s here in the in the UK, when the Brexit was here, a lot of people saying, Oh, the sky is falling. Well, no, it’s not. You know, we’ve got the rest of the world. But so there’s opportunity with Mexico and you guys are more than well placed with many, many, many, many years experience of full spectrums, you have an amazing framework. Thank you. Thank you for for your partnership and your kind words, and you also have the right culture. You have a culture there that is. You bring a strength, which I like is so I learned from American clients that they want to look you in the eye, and that’s a key word. Then I’ll say it again. Relationships means trust.

Heath Gascoigne  1:12:52

Yeah, okay, that’s it. That’s key. Yeah,

Heath Gascoigne  1:12:59

yes. Rafael, you want to say something there?

Rafael Cisneros  1:13:03

Yeah, a final thought for your audience that is listening, please. If you are tired of projects that are not accomplished the the objectives that they are looking for, or teams that are not a single one team because of the communication or you are not getting the results that you are expected from your strategy, then you can give a try to hover, because with Hova, as Rohan mentioned, you have the tool and the framework and the discipline to accomplish that so you can align All these factors, all the people, the technology, the process, the objectives, and you can achieve the results that you are looking for. So let’s try that, and we are here to help you.

Heath Gascoigne  1:13:51

Oh, lovely. Thank you very much there, Rafael and I’m going to we’ve not that I asked and offered the the team here if they want to get on a call, because I, you know, I run the podcast, we’ve not rehearsed anything, so I actually owe you some money there. Raphael, thank you very much for those kind words here, my friend, there’s a very, very nice and kind of you, but I will leave some contact details in the show notes, how to get a hold of you. I know that hobatech And you guys also just released a new AI transformation readiness scorecard, and so they can take that scorecard, take that assessment, to see how ready they are. And as what Ruben was also saying is that, you know, these transformations are holistic, and AI, at the moment, is the new shiny object. But it is not that, I think what’s the word there? The silver bullet, it is needs to be done and integrated holistic fashion and integrated in his fashion, not a let’s just replace your technology with AI version, or AI agent. It is as a part. Of a whole strategy, as you’re just saying there, Raphael, so there’ll be some tools there. I’ll put the links on the show notes to get a hold of you guys anyway, not just in in Mexico, but also Latin America. You guys cover the whole of Latin America. And also, no, because I think of most of you have got us citizenships and spend a lot of time. I know Ruben, you have you spent a lot of time in the US. You’ve got strong network in the US as well. So if they want to get hold of you, I’ll put the show notes, contact details in the show notes, and they can get a hold of you

Ruben Alberto Bravo Pinan  1:15:37

there. Thank you very much. And I think some of the words profile are very important, but you also mentioned there are keywords that I would love keeping in mind, holistic, business oriented, trust, alignment, discipline and passion. And if you allowed me, those are the words for me to make a difference.

Heath Gascoigne  1:16:03

Oh yes, I’m going to quote you on these, as I do with the guests on the podcast. Is you’ll see some quotes go out, and I will quote, I’ll quote the team there. So Okay. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, all the way there from wrap it up there, all the way from Mexico, in my afternoon here in the UK, which is now still the morning there in in Mexico, I hope you got some nice weather and it’s not raining. We’re having a heat wave over here in in UK or London at the moment. It won’t last. It’ll rain tomorrow. We’ll be back to normal. So thank you. Sign off the other Thank you very much. Guys. Enjoy rest your day. Really appreciate it. This will be up on the, on the on the podcast, and hopefully only a week or two, and then I’ll tag you, or we’ll put it out in social media so everyone can get a hold of you and help them with their holistic, integrated transformations.

Heath Gascoigne  1:16:54

Thank you a lot for you. Thank you. Thank you. My

Heath Gascoigne  1:16:58

pleasure. Okay, thank you Heath. Thank you Okay, bye, bye, bye.