How the Brilliant Basics Transforms Complex Environments
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How the Brilliant Basics Transforms Complex Environments
No business can stand the test of time without adapting to change. Propelling the company is already hard enough, and the pandemic has made it more complicated. For example, the WFH (work from home) trend has become a catalyst for cutting down the “people culture” in most companies. As employees transition to home offices, building culture and creating dynamic systems becomes very challenging. To help us with this shift, industry expert Ashleigh Dueker is here today. She is the principal consultant at Agile Transformation, PA Consulting. Her work involves assisting organizations in adapting to complex systems and combining innovative thinking and breakthrough with technologies, tools and processes to progress further. Today, she will give critical points on building, maintaining, and managing company cultures. As well as help us better understand the basics that an organization needs to transform their business.
"It's the emergence of ideas that will help unlock, find the solutions and help the systems still be dynamic as they evolve over time"
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Transcript
Heath:
Welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast. Iโm your host,Heath Gascoigne. This is a show where I cut through all the hype and noise and get to the facts of what actually is business transformation and what is required, how to and how not to do it. Iโll be talking to industry experts and professionals to share their stories, strategies, and insights to help you start, turnaround, or grow your business transformation. By the end of this podcast, we have some practical tips to use to make your business transformation a success. Whether youโre just at the start of your journeyor midway through, I hope you enjoy.
Heath: My name is Heath Gascoigne,Iโm the host of the Business Transformation Podcast, and this is the show for business transformators who are part business strategists, part business designers, part collaborators, and part negotiators. Business transformators have moved past just business design and includes oversight of implementation of those business designs and business transformations and includes stakeholder management, coordination, and negotiation. If you work in strategydevelopment and implementationand you work to ensure that it is aligned to the business design and technology, then youโre probably a business transformator. This is the show where we speak to industry experts and professionals to share their stories, strategies, and insights to help you start, turn around, and grow your business transformation. Welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast and in this episode, weโre talking to one of those industry experts. We are talking to Ashleigh Dueker, Principal Consultant, AgileTransformation at PA Consulting. Ashleighโs background is in change and agile transformation, helping organizations increase the ability to respond effectively and quickly to disruption and grasp opportunities for innovation. Seven years ago, she joined the agile community for the standups and two pizza parties and stayed for the people. Prior to finding her home in Agile, she worked in public health in the US and with Africa, developing and leading change and transformation activities in local communities. Outside of work, she leads the Agile Leadership Network of over 1,800 agile leaders, hosting meetup sessions and regularly bantering with industry thought leaders alongside Giles Lindsay.Ashleigh has an MBA from Lancaster University and a bachelorโs in psychology,PMI Agile certified practitioner and a Certified SAFe 5 Program Consultant. Welcome to the Business Transformation Podcast, Ashleigh. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk with me. How are you?
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Ashleigh: Iโm good, thanks. Great way to start the new year.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah. We just had a quick briefing before the talk and you gave me a little bit of a background into what youโve done. You recently just a public speaker on something that Iโm quite passionate about, the people element ofbusiness transformation, but also you gave a little insight about something that also I like is about the culture part of really organizations and transformation and I think itโs like Iโve mentioned this with a previous guest about this work from home trend right now is what I think is similar to the outsourcing roles to Africa โ to Asia, to the cheap cost locations but what they end up doing is they brought those roles back on shore because of the customer experience wasnโt the same. So what I think now has happened with this work from home cultureis that the silent victim who has no spokesperson right now is the culture. Youโre actually gonna kill the culture by having this โ everyone else is working from home and not collectively in the same building,that people element of transformation that I think is missing right now.
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Ashleigh: Agreed. No, 100 percent, and itโs really hard because weโre learning and growing together in how to navigate this new landscape, right? And when we are able to go into the office, itโs a completely revolutionized experience, you know, where itโs for collaboration typically, and then we go homeand we work from home and have a focus time at home, right? So how do you build and grow that culture? Because weโre two years into this now and this norm is here to stay so itโsnot a temporary approach anymore. So, how are we building and managing cultures and maintaining them and evolving them? Especially amid, you know, trends we see now of the great resignationwhere a lot of folks went off during COVID and, I donโt know about you, Heath, but a lot of the companies that I work with, everyone is struggling to find people โ
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: โ and retain people.
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Heath: Yeah, no, itโs interesting you say that. When I did my MBA a few years ago now, it was the corporate executive MBAwhere everyone works in like satellites around the country, and this is in Australia, and so at any time in the week, you could go attend the lecture as if you were in Adelaide or if youโre in Perth or Sydney, but then youโd come together for the collaborative work and then work remotely for everything else. But when everyone was together, that was where all the fun stuff happenedbut also where I think the most value was gained as opposed to working remotely on your own focus time.
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Ashleigh: Yeah, because, a lot of us, I mean, weโre working in these complex systems that are really adaptiveand theyโre self-organizing. So, there are different ways, I mean, we all have our different frameworks and tools and approaches for business transformation. Every management consultancy, every business, courses, certifications, we all have similar but different approaches, right? For the brilliant basics on looking after the core things like set your vision and approach, look after the op model and how are you defining the new target operating model and business design, the leadership component, the people culture, the change management component, and then how do you deliver value in that governance and PMO piece. And there are loads of different tools, right? We have lean, weโve got Six Sigma, weโve got Waterfall, weโve got Agile, weโve got all types of tools in our tool belt, but some things that I see time and time againis people not appreciating the bounded applicability of tools, right? So, what outcomes do people want to achieve in their transformations, you know? And just going back to the brilliant basics and getting those right, what outcomes do you want to achieve? What is the situational complexity or complicated nature that youโre working with and use the right tools, but, then, you know, if weโre working within complex environments, which most of us are, itโs people and these interactions and this emergence of idea, thatโs whatโs going to solve complexity. And by complexity, I mean, situations where you can agree what the problem is but no one person can agree on what exactly the solution is, you know, whatโs best practice, the solution out of this, right? Thatโs what I mean by complex versus, you know, complicated iswe know that thereโs a problem and we can more or less agree what the solution is. And then thereโs wicked, which is like, I donโt know, climate change. People canโt really โ where you canโt really agree on what the problem is, let alone how to solve it. But in this complex areawhere many businesses are playing, it is emergence, emergence of ideas that will help unlock and find the solutions and help the systems still be dynamicand evolve over time, right? And to get to that state of emergence, we can use tools to get there, but I often still find people confusing tools for purposeand not getting the best out of people and our interactions and how do you get that emergence of ideas in a safe space.
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Heath: Yeah, I think you touched on a key point there about I think the use of tools and I think maybe the dependence on tools, thinking that the tool is the answer. I have used โ
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Ashleigh: Or the process, right?The tool or process.
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Heath: Yeah. I tried to promote that, you know, you listed a few tools there, Lean Six Sigma and โ well, Leanand Six Sigma and then theyโve got whole BPMN and process management and BPMN and all the other stuff. Now, itโs not so much what I say to my clients and even students is that itโs not the tools, itโs the skill of the practitioner in using those tools. You got to understand the context, you got to understand, you know, the two points I push off, applicability of applying it to the right degreeand in the right context. Otherwise, you would just be like, you know, mostly technical guys get a bit of maybe the wrong end of the stick occasionally, that they run around with the hammer and technology and every problem is a technology,therefore I can solve with this. And itโs like the same thing.
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Ashleigh: Itโs all good, right? You get some satisfaction out of thinking thatyouโre doing stuff. โIโm doing stuffand Iโm doing good stuff.โ And it feels good, right? But thatโs an illusion, because what outcomes are you actually working towards in achieving and thatโs the question, right? Are we doing the right thing, not are we doing the thingright, are we doing the right thing?
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Heath: Yeah, thereโs a big difference. Are we doing the right thing. I start most of the transformations I get involved in is whatโs the vision and then as this word โvisionโ gets morphed into,โOh, thatโs our mission,โ so well,no, the mission is a purpose. This is why you exist. The vision is like that the North Star. This is the outcome you want to achieve. What does that look like? And then they get to this 25,000 foot really lofty statement and I say, โWell, you know, okay, if youโre actually going to achieve that, how are you going to do that? So what strategies are yougoing to employ?โThey go, โWell, actually, we havenโt actually thought that far,โ and so weโve gotta ground it โ Yep?
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Ashleigh: Sorry, no, go ahead.
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Heath: But you gotta ground it in reality, otherwise, it just ends up being a throwaway comment and so the people point is, if the people,which they will see it from this perspective of the whatโs in it for me, the WIIFM, and if they canโt see in their vision statement, which is the sole reason they exist, I go, โWell, I canโt see where Iโm involved in this vision so Iโll tell you what, how much involvement Iโm gonna provide?โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah, 100 percent. Itโs not that we donโt like change, because change is good, right? We donโt like, we resist being changed, being forced to change, not being engaged and collaborated with. And we all have different perspectives. And I know diversity is a really hot topic right now, but often what I hear about diversity and the diversity agenda is things like how do we tolerate differences and treat others equally without prejudice. But, for meand with my background, which, you know, my career started in a tribe in the Saharan desert in West Africa for years, so I learned a lot of indigenous ways of working and kind of tribal mentalitiesand that really impacted and with my neuropsychology degree, in undergrad, you know, that really impacted how I see the world. I live in the UK now, Iโm from America so lots of cross cultural, just things that Iโve picked up over the years. And, to me, diversity is an asset, itโs not an issue to be managed. You have to have different viewpoints. And thereโs this phrase that we used to sayin a village I lived in where you stand in a gully and see the rainbow and a person is standing on the hill seeing the same rainbow but from a different angle and you have to share each otherโs perspectives to see the whole. And we all perceive the world differently and we perceive the same situations differently, right? So when youโre talking about that visionand mission and case for changeand, you know, setting those brilliant basics, right? Say happy path, you do know what that is and we more or less can help bring people on that journey, right? You have clarity, you know where youโre going, but what about if you donโt? What if you have complex situations where you donโt know the answerand you need people to come together to share their different perspectives? And this is where I think just going back to the brilliant basics of learning from different cultures and how can we build trust and respect and listen, truly listen, without judgment, and bring these ideas together, you know, agile methodologies really tap into that where they essentially, you know, the way that they promote leadership and ways of working is delegate authority to people that have the knowledge who can make the right decisions, you know, at pace. And when Iโm going into new businesses or giving talks, I often like to ask the question, or people can raise their hand or do a poll or whatever, of โWho right now is in a leadership position? Who right now is in a leadership role?โ And that is really insightfulto me, the answer, because a lot of times, youโll have maybe 50 percent, 60 percent raise their hands. And then I challenge them, every single person is in a leadership rolebecause we have a duty of care to everyone that we work with. Even if we are the most junior person in role profile on that team, we all have a duty of care to look after one anotherand come together to find and create interesting, bizarre, wild, and wonderful solutions to these complex problems.
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Heath: Okay, so you said an interesting point there. I think when you ask the question, people might have seen it from the perspective of leadership position of do you have leadership in your title, but where it is, no, you actually have leadership in your behavior. Yeah, and that maybe comes from the culture part of the people feel empowered thateven though they might not have leader in their title, that they still have leadership in their ability to behave as if they, you know, they have that power. You talked about culture and I think a key partly about trust, likeyou talked about culture, and your backgroundgrowing up in Africa with different tribes, like Iโm born in New Zealand, and Maori culture and tribes is โ thatโs one and the same, and people,when they held the All Blacks as almost unbeatable, you know, the world-winning number, the most successful team. Itโs like youโre missing the point. Itโs the culture. Thatโs why theyโre so good, because they, like what you just said, the trust part. They think like their one person, the whole team of 15 people is actually one person, and so as an extension of when they read each otherโs minds, because they, you know, they think and behave like one thing, that culture part, I think it is major overlooked, and itโs maybe like you talked about the complexityof transformations is itโs not around the processand itโs not around the technology, itโs the โ
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Ashleigh: You have to have it though. You have to have it, right? You absolutely have to have the brilliant basics. Without that, it wonโt work. You have to have it, but then you have to go beyond that, right?
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: And All Blacks, thatโs such an interesting case study. I studied that in my MBA too. Theyโre in a Harvard Business Review, I think, actually.
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Heath: Oh, wow.
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Ashleigh: Yeah.
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Heath: Iโm not surprised.
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Ashleigh: And I think they studied fewer moves and mastered them instead of practicing almost over and over and over again, they practice fewer and became experts in them and that was a really useful for them as well, but, yeah, the culture point. And culture, I really like to explore this a bit more with you on this callbecause culture can be a bit woollyor it can just be something where people just pay a bit of homage to, yeah, we need to work on the culture, right?Letโs look at lulu and look at the cultural web and, you know, do some semi-structured interviews and some surveys to understand the as-is state and then map the 2Band then we can create our plan on how to get there, right?
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: And itโs all very โ itโs very scientific and ordered and, you know, we all wish that we could live in this rational worldwhich we all know that we donโt. I like to think weโre rational beingsbut weโre not. So, yeah, I think, for me, theyโre just some real brilliant, simple things that we can all do to start facilitating, building this trust and building a culture because, I mean, it goes without saying, you know, anyone who works in transformation knows that. Even if you arenโt focusing on your culture, itโs still there. It is always there.
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Heath: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: Whether you are acknowledging it and working with it or not, it will be there.
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Heath: Yeah, thatโs the โ yeah, the cultureeats strategy for breakfast, regardless of how great โ
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Ashleigh: Oh, yeah, Drucker. And it does.
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: It does.
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Heath: Yeah, people ignore thatand like โ this clientIโm helping now, I might have mentioned it on a previous podcast, is they had the name of the project, and the name of the project had the term โoptimization,โ and I said, โI donโt think actually what youโre trying to do is optimize this process. Actually what youโre doing before this process of creating projects was you are enhancing or creating new business capabilities. In order to do that, you want to, at the moment, letโs say, you are in oil and gas, but you want to be in all things energy, how do you do that for your projects? So what youโre doing is you are actually creating, enhancing new business capabilities that do two things. They either save your business and make moneyor save the business and cost money. But if you do a really good job, theyโll save the business and youโll make money but you better do it again, again, again, again, quicker, cheaper, and then you can turn the ship.โ They said, โYeah, thatโs what we wanna do.โ I said, โOkay, if thatโs what you wanna do, what youโre talking about is not optimization, itโs transformation.โ They said, โOh, yeah, thatโs what we wanted.โ I said, โOkay, but now youโre gonna โ weโre calling your transformation, weโre gonna change the name of the project, the big elephant in the room right behind us is these transformation projects got a massive 70 percent failure rate so weโre up against it from day one.โThey said, โOh, okay,โ and I said, โYou knowthe four problems, four main causes?โ They said no, I said, โWell, lack of business user involvement, lack of senior leadership support, changing requirements, and complete requirements.โ I said, โFrom the first one,โ I said, โYou know, the lack of business involvement, I think youโve got good engagement. I see what you donโt have is leadership. No one from the top wants to put their hand up and support this projectso I can tell you how well itโs gonna go.โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah. And, you know, best processes and tools around that, itโs not going to solve that red tape. The red tape that you find in businesses, the bureaucracy, meeting culture, whatever the case may be, not getting the leadership buy inbecause they each have their own specific points of viewor what theyโre trying to get out of this, different agendas, you know, tools and frameworks arenโt gonna solve this stuff. The people side, the people skills, which I hate that itโs called soft skills, just like, theyโre people. These are โ these are human skills. Theyโre not soft, theyโre human skills, right? How can you break that down? How can you break down those barriers and get the people aligned, right? So, again, it just comes back to simple stuff to me, likestart with respect and really listen to everyone, every point of view, because you realize you cannot solve this alone or one agenda times 12or however many is in the leadership team, etc., thatโs not going to solve the problems alone and itโs not going to get the outcomes that you want to achieve alone. Solutions to complex problems takes a lot of dissimilar points of viewand weโre all interconnected so we have to respect and hear all points of view, remove hierarchy, be reciprocal with how weโre listening and, you know, be warm. Thereโs a great HBR article called โConnect thenLeadโ where, you know, whatโs better to โ so there are two main components, two main characteristics that we judge in other human beings. I mean, sure, thereโs a lot of characteristics, but the two that always come up with like90 percent of all cases on how do we actually judge others, itโs on two characteristics: How lovable are they, okay, how warm and trustworthy are they versus how fearsome are they, okay? Strength and competence, right? And often in many of our organizations, people start with competence of,โIโve done this, this, this.These are my creds.This is my expertise,โ right? Instead of connecting with the people, you start with the creds, but that starts from a backfoot where you can put people off and drive fear behaviors and worry and stress and drive bad day behaviors so you do need both. But connect, start with the warmth and genuinely care to connect with people. Listen, respect them, and then show those fearsome behaviors, right? And your competence. And oscillating between those is really how you can engage and lead and go on the journeys together as a leader.
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Heath: Yeah, I think you โ what youโre talking about there about, I think the likable, lovable, warm, trustworthy is like in marketing, youโd say, know, like, and trust. And so youโve built some form of rapport and now you can come through with the โ
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Ashleigh: Just influence, join, disarm, put out the fires. When you and I go into other organizations, theyโre struggling, right? Theyโre struggling with their transformations. Thereโs a lot of failure. Thereโs a lot of different agendas being pushed. Put out the fires and defuse.Get those brilliant basics, the vision, you know, op model, leadership, people, culture, change, governance, all of that, but disarm, defuse, and get people to listen and respect and value the different points of view, realizing that even when people share weird and wonderful ideas, even if those arenโt potentially good ideas enough themselves, they might spark one that is, right?That may spark that idea โ
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Heath: Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: โ and more dynamic and we have to go through this period of collaboration and emergence and, you know, bringing in continuous improvement and kaizen and just constantly questioning, because itโs hard to ask these questions, and be honest of are we still doing the right thing? Are these the right outcomes? Are we doing the right stuff to achieve these outcomes?And ask them over and over and over again.
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Heath: You raise a good point there about collaboration. I think, like in brainstorming sessions, like I have led a few transformations and one of them, I wonโt name any names, but you could probably work out who it is, that as part of the brainstorming, really it was the vision, the strategy, objectives, and measures exercise, the SMT, the senior management team, I said, โWeโre gonna brainstorm this,sticky notes on the wall here, and no oneโs gonna talk for two minutes,โ and I had individual meetings of each one of the senior management team and they had a different opinion to the director, and they said, โBut the director comes from this backgroundand they have this mindset of cost cutting and we have a mindset of valuating,โ and so theyโre at opposite ends. So how do we come up with a vision for all of us? And I say, โThis is how weโre gonna do it.โ So I said, โOkay, you got two minutesand thereโs no talking, because as soon as you start talking, you kill the creativity, because the criticism comes in,โ and they say โ
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Ashleigh: Then you go to analytic mode, donโt you? Yeah.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah. And they say, โWhat are you thinking that for?โ And this is the part about giving people the freedom to go and express themselves without risk of being judgedor prejudiced,and like you said about I think the two types of groups, the heterogeneous and the homogeneous groups, you know? You put two of those groups together, the same people and diverse people whoโs going to come up with more creative ideas?
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Ashleigh: Diverse.
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Heath: Yeah, you put engineers together, come up with creative ideas and a mix of people, the mix. Yeah, so I think people will look at that almost like tools and techniques and they think thatโs the answer. So well โ
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Ashleigh: Oh, 100 percent. Oh, my gosh, time and time again. I mean, thatโs the phone calls I get, you know? โHey, Ash, IT is too slow to deliver. You know, weโve got shadow IT across the organization,โ and developer saying, โWeโre working so hard, you know, but weโre being micromanaged, you know? People are coming to us for urgent things all the time. But, you know, weโre getting thrown off of all of this,โ and then youโve got PMO and governance saying, โThese teams canโt estimate their retirement budget, weโre not doing the right things,โ and you hear that time and time again and then you think, โAgile will save us.โ
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Heath: Yeah, weโre going agile, yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: You start it and then realize, you know, agile didnโt save us and then itโs like, do we need to be better at agile? Do we need to do more agile?Are we doing this right? Are we doing enough of it, you know? And then you try and try againand it just leads to confusion and fear. But, again, in this complex space where agile works well, the tools and frameworks are there to enable emergence of idea and co-collaboration and co-creation.Theyโre in a complicated environment, again, where you, more or less, you kind of have a happy path to a solution. Donโt use agile, right? Use the other tools in the tool belt where that is actually process over people. If you need to do Six Sigma and Lean processes out and be super-efficient with a 0.01percent margin of error, you know, use your Six Sigma, that is process over people, and thatโs fine. But you canโt have these dual operating systems or multi โ you know, you have to look and be aware across the landscape of the organizationwhat is the right tool for the job.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thatโs what I was saying earlier about applicable and the context. Itโs interestingyou talked about the learning or using Six Sigma. One of the recent clients I was working with, they had decided within the transformation divisionthat all the process maps must be mapped, by anyone in the business, anyone whoโs not even in the transformation division, using BPMN notation and if they donโt know how to use BPMN notation, theyโre going off site for two days to learn how to do it. And I was like, โWait a minute, so youโve got practitioners, pharmacists working in the research labs, and youโre telling them they must go do two days off site BPMN notation to learn how to do process maps, but then theyโre not processmappers and theyโre not in transformation, theyโre not consultants. Why are you making them do that?โโWell, thatโs the process, thatโs the standard we adopted.โ I said, โWell, howโs that working for you?โ โOh, they hate it.โI go, โWhy is that?โ They said, โOh, because they donโt know it.โ I said, โBut do they need it? You know, you could just use a swim lane or a flow chart, thatโs good enough, you know? Youโre not helping yourself. Thatโs crazy.โ
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Ashleigh: Wonder where they got that idea from.
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Heath: I donโt know. I think someone might have created a little cottage industry for themselves and that was a protection mechanism to make sure that everything was done to the nth degree but, you know, you talk about business agility, youโre not creating business agility there. This is โ yeah.
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Ashleigh: Itโs hard. You know, business agility is hard, it really is, because itโs different in every organization and you have to have courage to face into the legacy stuff, you know? The legacy wrappers that have been accrued over the years, especially in longstanding and large enterprises, where, at one point in time, a tool or process or a grade log with 17 columns, it served a purpose, and then the person who introduced itor the reason why it was introduceddissolved and something else came inor someone else came in, new regulations, you know, fill in the blank, but then itโs just additive, right?
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: And these processes and tools, itโs just additive instead of pausing and reflecting what do we actually need to statutorily comply with? What is best practice here? What do we actually need to do? And challenge the rest. But that takes courage and thatโs really hard and people can get really defensive with that, even if they inherited this stuff, even if itโs inherited tools and processes and standards, if theyโre the owners of these inherited tools, you know, thatโs challenging. This is a difficult situation. So all the more reason why just, you know, people coming togetherand everyone seeing themselves as a leaderand having this duty of care to everyone theyโre working withand building these kind of positive behaviors and interactions and holding people to account, right? Because if you want to actually change behaviorsand therefore the culture, we have to have the courage to call people out when theyโre having bad day behaviorsand take people aside and really challenge and do that and thatโs hard. And sometimes itโs risky for your job.
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Heath: Oh, yeah.
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Ashleigh: Especially in this environment and itโs hard with reading the nonverbal communication with video calls. Thank Godwe have the ability to do video calls and itโs not just camera off most of the time โ
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Heath: Yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: โ so you can pick up on some of that, but it is hard and sometimes we get it wrong, right? So we need to also be able to forgive when we do mess up. But thatโs quite an adjustment. And Iโve not really seen too many tips or answers to that listening,so like listeningor the super effective listening where, you know, 70 percent of communication is nonverbal. Have you heard any tips or tricks on that in this remote world?
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Heath: No, not really, to be honest. Maybe thatโs a new talk you can do. Yeah, nonverbal, yeah, like, yeah, I think there needs to be some maybe best practice for use of video calls for your meetings. Iโm not a fan of having video calls and turning your camera off. Whatโs the point? And I would sooner say, thatโs it, not just turn the videos off, turn the computer off and come into the officeand then letโs have a meeting in a room, you know?And if we want to get this solved, solve these problems, the nonverbal communication where people have got their screens off, itโs like, okay, what are you really thinking? Because whatโs going to happen in the end is that people will do what they want to do anyway. Yeah, so if you donโt pick up on that nonverbal, then thatโs a massive clue, like you said there, 70 percent, I think itโs something like that. Yeah, like two-thirds, at least. So, yeah โ
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Ashleigh: Or at least we can designate which calls is best for having cameras on because sometimes, depending on the culture of an organization, is theyโre a heavy meeting culture, you know, Iโve had clients where I average 12to 16 meetings every single day, literally every single day, and itโs exhausting, right?And having the camera on, I have read a study where, because we can see ourselves in the corner of the screen, we end up looking at ourselves when weโre talking, you know, and thatโs exhausting for people, because weโre not used to that. Weโre not used to seeing ourselves all the time. So that is quite tiring. So maybe just clarifying a preference of which meetings where itโs a collaborative type of engagement session where itโs best to have the cameras on and then other times where, you knowwhat, if you donโt want the camera on for this one, letโs all go camera freeand just have a bit of a rest, right?
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Heath: Yeah, okay. No, Iโm a big fan of, although, you know, I could turn the camera off but Iโm a big fan of โ because I think the silent victim is the culture. When people โ well, people donโt come into the office, you know, if you donโt come into office, there is no culture, you kill it, so when does the culture happen? When youโre together. When you can touch, see, feel the presence of other people, their emotional intelligence part. So if you are turning off the cameras, youโre going to kill the culture. So I keep my camera on for all meetings. People will probably think Iโm a bit crazy. Itโs like, you know what, you know, these business transformations donโt fail because of the technology, they failbecause of the peopleโs contribution or lack of contribution to the project and โ
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Ashleigh: And do they feel empowered and in a safe space where they can make the contribution or are they even being asked for the contribution? Are they being told what to do, right? And, you know, in addition to the camera, I guess there are some other things that we can be doing, which I think a lot of people have probably caught on to during this COVID world of things like intentionally building in coffee catch-ups or having the first five minutes or last five minutes of the meeting, have just a bit of a juicy gossip, right? Like have a social โ
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Heath: Yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: โ conversation, just to catch up on things that arenโt related. Because we canโt just go get a cup of tea with people anymore and just have that catch-up so you have to be intentional with it and build it in more.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah. I actually was โ well, one client, we madelike one hour, four oโclock on a Friday or a Thursday because people wanted to do something on Friday, and we made that, it was either some games and someone had to explain it โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah, social, yeah.
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Heath: Yeah, or drinking โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah.
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Heath: Yeah, otherwise, it wonโt happen. I was actually having a conversation on LinkedIn with actually a former program manager I used to work with and he said, โNo, weโre 100 percent working from home now. No more coming to office, except for a meal. Weโre gonna get โ
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Ashleigh: I love that.
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Heath: And I said, โIsnโt that funny โ
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Ashleigh: Maybe you still need to work but if youโre coming in for the meal, may as well have a working day, right?
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: And get that collaboration together and then go out for the meal, right?
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Heath: Yeah. I said, so why is it that you canโt just eat at your desk or in front of your computer but you need to be sitting in the same room beside each other eating? I said do you not see that will you think that you need to be in a room to eat versus being in the room to collaboratively work is the same thing? And he goes no โ
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Ashleigh: You need to build the bonds, right?With dinner. And then leverage the bonds, right? Leveraging these collaborative sessions, working sessions together.
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Heath: Yeah. Like I actually was gonna write another book before โ oh, I actually started writing it but I was told not to publish it because I would never get another job in the industry again, calling out โ and I said, โWell, maybe I donโt want another job in the industryif this is the behavior,โ and that was about peopleโs behavior. And if you donโt have any trust and people canโt speak their mind, people are just gonna do what they want anyway and what happens?These projects fail and then what happens there?Then thereโs more money committed to it and it goes around in a circle and then it fails againand thereโs no transformations happening here. Itโs just actually money getting thrown after bad money.
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Ashleigh: That just triggered another thought, actually. I love this. I love this bouncing ideas back and forth between one another. This is great. Your podcast is awesome.
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Heath: Oh, thank you.
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Ashleigh: You know, change and change fatigue, right? And constantly trying to go through initiatives and change fatigue, just another elementweโre just building up this picture of culture because culture is ephemeral, right? Itโs hard to โ even anthropologists canโt agree the definition of culture. But we know itโs kind of behaviors, right? You can see it in behaviors and stories and signs and symbols and all of these different ways that we interact and bring meaning with one another. But with change fatigue, that is a really important topic. And in Agile, so agile, the industry is kind of moving, for lack of a better word, like to Agile 2.0, if you will, right?Agileโs been around for decades and itโs kind of morphedand everyone has a different opinion on what it means. Itโs changed, just like digital. Digital transformation, all things digital, everyone has a different opinion on this. But trends Iโm noticing in the industry is moving away from agile or agility towards flow, a state of flow. How can you actually minimize the perception of changeand the jarring that comes with forced changeespecially and we already touched on this, right?Of engage people so that theyโre co-creating and collaborating on this so itโs not change being done to them but theyโre part of this, shaping it together, and you do it one step at a time. And it emerges as you go down this path. But also, as you start to go down that path, then you get to the point where youโre just flowing. And especially, you know, different op models are structured to help enable this flow.Matrix-style op models and, you know, agile, organizing around value, around customer linesessentially, value streams and value, organizing that way really does help enable this concept of flowwhere it minimizes and negates change fatigueand helps keep people plugged in.
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Heath: Yeah, Iโm a big fan of avoiding the change fatigue. Yeah, thatโs one of the first questions I ask aboutwhat recent change have you been through and usually itโs a โ โcause my interest there is around about lessons learned, about what you did well, what you wanna keep doing, what you stopped doing, what you wanna start doing. And then most of the time, itโs, โOh, well,โ likeI remember the first project I did in the UK with the government regulator, I wonโt mention any names, but they had done an insurance regulation change and, oh, this must be something similar to a banking regulation change. โOh, yeah, yeah, we just did that.โ And I said, โOkay, so whatโs the lesson learned?โโOh, we didnโt capture any.โโSo how long was that project?โโLike five years.โ And no lessons learned so,โOkay, so you wouldnโt happen to have anyof those old staff members on that project still here?โโOh, yes, yes, yes. Actually,remember that going away party you went to yesterday? That was the last person who just left.โI was like, โYouโre kidding.โAnd so, you know, thatโs where you identify change fatigue, you know?What was โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah, whatโs hindering us?Whatโs not working? As you go into that state of flowand youโre doing the next thing and then the next thing and the next thing, yeah, itโs that constant, continuous improvement loop, the feedback loop of how can we be doing things slightly differently? Are we still doing the right things? Whatโs blocking us? What can be better? What can change? 100 percent. And also, Iโll add a sprinkling of the growth mindset in there too of, because in the past couple years, I think a lot of us in business, maybe not all but some of usI think sought mental health might have been a bit woo-woo.
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Heath: Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: All is well now. Itโs not that like โ this is a real thing, right? And thatโs been โ I think all of us have, at some point, encountered issues with mental health in the past few years and how can you lead and how can you work with your teams when youโre going through this and I find pursuing and promoting a growth mindset, where instead of thinking, โI canโt solve this,โ or,โOh, no, another change. Oh, no, another thingโs gone wrong. Oh, no, this happened, this happened,โ you know, โThis is impossible. I canโt solve this,โ itโs changing that mindset to, โWe havenโt found the solution yet,โ right? โI havenโt found the answer yet,โ and working together on that growth mindsetand mitigating change fatigue by getting into the state of flow, you know, and Iโll just throw another final curveball into this, but purpose. I think probably one of the single most important things that we can help our colleagues, ourselves, the people that we lead, the people that we manage, find to help build that resilience and build a culture and a team is finding purpose and there are so many different types of purpose, right? Organizational purpose. Now, a lot of consumer behavior is demanding purpose-led organizations, right?And contributing back to the environment, etc. Weโre really seeing that consumer shift of preference and behavior. So you have organizational purpose, you know, team purpose, but also your own individual purpose. And when that is challenged, how can we help people re-find their purpose, especially when a lot of people say now, I donโt know if you hear this but I hear this,โI just donโt wanna work anymore,โyou know, first day back in the year, right? Did you hear anyone who said, โOh, I was really looking forward to going back to work today,โ you know?You have like resignation and all sorts of stuff going on so how can we change โ if we canโt change our roles, how can we change our mindsets and be more of service to others? Like thereโs this great story, I think it was of John F. Kennedywhen he visited NASAand he asked the janitor, โOh, what do you do here?โ And the janitorโs response was, โI put people on the moon,โ you know?And connecting to that higher purpose.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah, his role in the whole process, yeah, or the organization.
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Ashleigh: He contributes to putting people on the moon, you know? So, purpose is something that I think is extraordinary and if we tap more into thatand have that intrinsic motivation, for ourselves, for our teams, and for our organizations, that helps bring people togetherand helps transformations be a bit more successful. And, again, to build on everythingwe said, you still have to have those brilliant basics, you still have to have the tools and the frameworks and the processes. Donโt get me wrong. Weโve talked about the challenges with them and the limitationsbut you do have to have them. But those alone arenโt going to remove the obstacles that often businesses have, right? You have to go beyond that and go into the people sphere. Culture is part of that but people and interactions and co-creation and trust and empowerment and delegation of authority, maybe not always but where the situation calls for it, things like that.
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Heath: Yeah, Iโm with you with the โ I like your brilliant basics, the vision, operating model, leadership, people and change, governance, the part about the tools, you need the toolsbut you donโt make the tools, you crutch, you know? I think thatโs been the misuse maybe of tools right nowis that they are seen as, whatโs that word? The panacea of this.Weโve got agile. Weโre using BPMN notation. No. Understand first the context of where youโre using it and if itโs suitable, then, yes. How you apply it is one thing and the context that you apply it is the other. Yeah, I think when we talk about these transformations, and Iโm sure for your timecurrently at PA and before that, you know, these transformation projects are not small, cheap costing projects, theyโre into the hundreds of millions of pounds, and they fix hundreds, if not thousands of stakeholders, and so you get it wrong, thereโs no transformation and thereโs lost money, lost opportunity. So, yeah, no, we need to be doing things differently. Otherwise, weโre repeating mistakes. So a lot, I reckon you could write a book. Yeah, seriously, so when is it coming out? I can tell you how long it took me to write mine so โ
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Ashleigh: How long did it take you to write yours?
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Heath: Well โ
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Ashleigh: I saw itโs in Audible now too. The Transformation book is on Audible, I saw.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah, that took โ well, that recording of just the audiobook was over 30 hours. Thereโs a lot of words to read. And not just to read them, you know? You gotta read them and be clear so that was one thing. But to write the book, the writing of the book was 18 months. Twelve months of that was full time and then it was another twelve months dealing with the editor and the publisher. So, all in all, it was a two-and-a-half-year project. So, yeah, no, but, you know, at the same time, because I always want, you know, you need to do one, right? So thereโs two other books in draft, I just donโt have the time to finish them. But Iโll tell you what, some of the stuff you touched on now, which I donโt see a lot of people talking about, we talked about this earlier before the podcast started, thereโs some technical guys that have been on the podcast and, you know, their naturalprobably deposition is, because theyโre technical guys, is to start with technology. But all they were talking about were people. Technology, like the tools, is not the panacea, but itโs first understanding the people, understanding the culture, and then, you know, whatever, if a process needs to support these new ways of workingand theyโre enabled by technology, then, hey, you got your answer, thatโs a solution. But thatโs not from the start. You donโt start at technology then add more technology and think youโre gonna get a transformation. No, youโre probably gonna to get a 70 percent failure rate.
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Ashleigh: Yeah, and, you know, diversity, getting that diversity of thought and all the different approaches and people with the different fortes and bringing that together in a way where you can tap into thatand leverage and work with that diversity of thought because having diversity isnโt enough, right? Unless you can actually hold space where you can leverage the beauty of that emergence of idea, thatโs the jackpot. Thatโs what weโre all striving for, I think.
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Heath: Thatโs a key word,diversity.Diversity thatโs getting pushed right now I think is you can have your diverse thinkingas long as itโs the same as ours. Like, well, thatโs not diverse,thatโs just you want me tosay my piece then do exactly what you just said, but nothing to do with what I just suggested to you. Yeah, I think that what you said there, give people the space when to say it, but then, okay, you need to act on it now. Not just a throwawaycomment and go, โOkay, this is what I believe that we should do,โ and then go, โOkay, if we just wait long enough, theyโll be quietand then we can go and do what we want to do.โ
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Ashleigh: Yeah, and the hard part there is you getting the culture to a place where leaders can act on that, right? And you can have that agility of the enterprise where you can pivot quickly and take the new information, whether thatโs from your own peopleor from the end user that youโre learning from, you know, take that information and quickly pivot and be able to make a swift decision that is well enough informed on what to start, stop, and continue. Especially now, with the nature of business and how complex the environments are that weโre working inand competitiveness and changing consumer behavior at the drop of the hat, itโs really important now. Itโs always been importantbut itโs particularly important now. And I think the trend is just gonna keep continuing. And how can we hire, attract, hire, and retain that talent and build this, right? Because you canโt get this stuff overnight. Going through that forming, storming, norming, and performing cycle, that takes time. You have to โ
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Heath: Improve formation, yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: Yeah. So, yeah, this great resignation is something that Iโve been keeping my eye on quite closely and that, to me, and maybe itโs just me, you know, I could be wrong but when I look to, when I think about the trends for this yearand the future, the biggest threats that I see to the success of transformationisnโt those brilliant basics that we talked about. We already know that.We know what we need to do, right? We knowwe need to get on and do it. But when we canโt attract the right talent, incentivize the right talent, invest in that talent, because, in our generation, how often do you see careers in a job? You donโt anymore. In fact, when Iโm hiring for roles, if you look and see someoneโs been in the same role for 5, 10 years, you think, โOh, that person doesnโt have very much ambition,โ you know?Itโs seen almost as a negative thing at times. Itโs changed that much between generations. Now, thereโs this almost commonly accepted thought that if I want to get promotedor get a pay rise, my company wonโt do that for meunless I fight tooth and nail to get itand have an offer to hand and, you know, hold it up to my boss and say, โHey, either give me what Iโve been asking for and deserve or Iโm walking,โ you know? That threat, why โ I just donโt understand why, personally, but this whole, whatโs called the employee value proposition, you know, looking at that attraction and retention and investing in talentand understanding what capabilities, as the organization evolves and as you go through that state of flow, what capabilities are required to deliver these outcomes and what are you going to invest in internallyversus have your third party suppliers, your partnerships, your relationships, your contractors, etc., what does that ideal blend look like for your enterprise thatโs the happy mix, right? Where you can get this culture because I do want to make that point quite clear. When you and I are talking about people in interactions, Iโm not just talking about FTEs. Most companies arenโt only FTEs now. Itโs always a blend of heavily outsourced providersor dev teams, if weโre talking about the technology sense, a blendof contractors and consultants and all that. Itโs all of this, right? When weโre talking about the people interactions, itโs blending all of this.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah.
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Ashleigh: So how are we โ how are organizations, I just really challenge any person listening to this podcast in the future, just really think about that blend in your organizationand how are you investing in the capabilities in growing that talent and is loyalty still a dirty word? Can we start to bring this back as a positive trait that we should be striving for? You know, loyalty to our workforce and loyalty to organizations and really invest in that and grow that because those bonds, thatโs where the magic of longstanding adaptive organizations overcoming challenges and complexity, thatโs where itโs gonna come from, right?
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Heath: Yeah, yeah. You said a lot of things there and itโs all good stuff. You know, the attract and retain one, look, I did an HR transformation just recentlyand one of the key objectives that they had was they want to attract and retain the key staff, beststaff, and so,well, why even got that a goal? I said, โWell, at the moment, because of Brexit, they had lost the revenue channel but they now had opened up to the rest of the world, they had the opportunity to do other things, but they didnโt have the staff to do it.โ And they said, โOkay, sowhat does it mean, attract and retain?โWell, at the moment, so why is that an issue? Because currently we canโt. And so why not? Because we donโt have the capability. And so you unpick itand you get down to the root cause and go, okay, no, hereโs the real problem. But, yeah, thatโs all coming back againto the people element and, you know, that capability part is like, you know, it comes back to the first part, whereโs the vision? Where you want to be? Oh, you want to be this new, letโs say for HR it was the strategic people partner or trusted partner to help the business continuously improve, so how do you see yourself in that role? And so how do you help the business? Oh, because we have a strategic part, the continuous improvement. Oh, and where does that come from? From our staff. And is it โ yeah, itโs all cyclical, you know? And the people, they talk about it and I think itโs been renamed.Firstit was human resources, and then it got renamed to human capital and I think now coming back to human resources againand so that part is cyclical. But โ
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Ashleigh: Human capital.
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Heath: Yeah.
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Ashleigh: Thatโs a whole topic for another podcast, I think. Yeah, the people agenda.
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Heath: Yeah, the HCM, human capital management, which is just a rebranded human resource management maybe. But, yeah, no, some really good takeaways there. Thank you very much. So I wanna recap what we talked about. I was writing notes the whole time so if I had my head down, but Iโm viciously writing down the notes, but I like, from what I said earlier, was the brilliant basics and I think that organizations need to get that right. Thatโs the starting point of I think any transformation. You saidthe vision, which my approach and process is it all starts with the vision, you get that. So you get that vision right. Understand your operating model. Leadership is key, like, you know, I said that, one of the second causes of business transformationfailure is lack of leadership. So understand your leadership and people in change, what does that look like and how is it gonna change, then governance, like who have you got making the decisions here? One of the key things I talk about is, you know, if you look into your project and your governance board, like Iโve been in some big UK government projectsand they have a governance authorityand itโs called the solution design authority, and I said, โOkay, so what are you making decisions about?โ They said, โOh, business decisions.โ I say, โOkay, who here is representing the business?โOh, no, no, no, no, no, not invited. And I say, โSo whoโs making the decisions for the business then?โ They said, โNo, no, theyโre not invited.โ I said, โWell, okay, so this is a technologyauthority,โ and they said, โWell, itโs actually the business authoritybut the business is a bad word so we call it solution.โ I said, โOh, my goodness, you know, this is the starting point of the problem right here is,โ you know? So governance is a key part. If you canโt look into your governance authority into the board and thereโs no business representatives there, thatโs the first call out. You mentioned the tools and frameworks, which they exist and thereโs a lot out thereand theyโre all good to be used and to places, the applicability for the โ how much to the degree, the light touch or detail, then the context of, okay, is this suitable for this environment? If not, hey, maybe donโt use BPMN notation, maybe use something else. Thereโs a lot of โ you hit the three things on the different types of complexity. You talked about these, I think like we called them maybe a continuum of complexity, the complexity complicated and wicked, wicked being that no one agrees about what the potential solution could be.
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Ashleigh: Or what the problem is.
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Heath: Yeah, even worse. Even worse. Yeah. And the merging ideas came through as a result of diverse groups of people coming together to solve those problems, which I saidthe difference between homogeneous and heterogeneous groups, you know? Youโve gotta have different minds come together to come up with the creative ideasand creative ideas with not being criticized and your word you said, to allow the freedom and the space to talk about that, so people listening, itโs like, yeah, okay, you can โ it canโt be lip service. Otherwise โ then you talked about loyalty and trust. You donโt get that by giving lip service.
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Ashleigh: Yeah.
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Heath: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what else did we cover there? I think a major part there about change fatigue, and the Agile 1.0 has moved to 2.0 and weโre moving to a state of flow, that there is always going to be continuous change, that continuous change might have an order to it and that order is like a flow down the stream, if you will, but it is always moving. The thing that is, I think we would have said a few years ago about mental health is a little bit of what are you talking about, thatโs a little bit of a softie, softie, little bit of nonsense, but now, in this environment, post-COVID, well, if it is still post-COVID, although we wonโt get on that subject, that, you know, mental health is a major thing, not a thing that can be brushed under the carpet. Mental health, part of peopleโs behavior, part of people, part of culture. You canโt overlook that. I think a thing that you talked about was a major, probably it could be โ maybe itโs the panacea is the purpose and you talked about purpose on three levels, the self or individual level, at the team level, and at the organization level, the example that you used about JFKand the cleaner, he saw his individual role as his ultimate purpose is part of putting people on the moon, although, you know, his direct day-to-day tasks may not be directly involved to, you know, fueling that rocket ship but he saw his role as playing a crucial part in putting people on the moon. So, you know, so having a clear purpose at the different levels is, I think, probably a key part. And the last one here about the speed of change and group formation. I think the big change is that we are maybe not sure what the driver is, whether itโs consumer driven speed of change, that consumers change their mind so much, or itโs because of organizations provide their new tools or new products or new services at a speed and it becomes cyclical and in the middle is an employee who have to cope with all the change.
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Ashleigh: 100 percent. Great recap.
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Heath: Wow.
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Ashleigh: Well done. We talked about a lot.
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Heath: Yeah, no. Well, I find, you know, my MBA was majored around change management, one part of it, which I think, you know, itโs the most overseen, overlooked element of business transformation. If you wanna get more bang for buck out of your change projects, you canโt ignore the people part. If anything, thatโs where youโre starting and, funnily enough, youโll probably end up finishing there too.
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Ashleigh: Agree.ย I feel like we could talk for ages on this topic, actually.
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Heath: Yeah, we have to have a part two, a part twoand maybe even the human capital part that we just touched on there and we can elaborate on that and if you do another talk in between part two, then maybe you can fill us in on what that was and how that went and then sort of drop a few gems for the audience.
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Ashleigh: Will do. Perfect.
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Heath: Okay, Ashleigh, weโll wrap it up there. Thank you very much for your time on a Tuesday evening, which people wonโt know what evening it is when this gets published though. But, yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
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Ashleigh: Thanks so much, Heath. This has been fantastic. Thank you for the opportunity to come speak with you tonight and just bounce some ideas back and forth with each other.
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Heath: My pleasure. Okay. Thank you. Have a good night.
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Ashleigh: Bye.
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Heath: Okay, bye.
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(outro)
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What is business transformation? This is a two-part answer. The first part is what is business transformation, and then when is the change the organization goes through deemed a transformation? Firstly, the definition. Business transformation is where business changes the way it does business. That is, it changes how it creates and delivers its products and services, its CVP, its customer value proposition to its customers. It doesnโt necessarily change what it does, but it changes how it does it.
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Book Recommendation
Recommended Podcast Episodes
- Overcoming the Top 7 Obstacles SMEs Face with Business Transformation - Clive Hardisty [001]
- The 10 Essential Elements for Integrating the Enterprise - Tony Benedict [002]
- The Use of Digital, New Emerging and Existing Technologies in Health Care - Martin Howard [003]
- 7 Steps to Transforming the Strategic Business Model - Nathan Allchin [004]
- How the Pandemic Changed the Cultural and Accelerated Virtuality Adoption - Brian Russon [005]
- 5 Steps from Startup to Exit. A CEO's Transformation - Steven Pivnik [006]
Heath Gascoigne
Hi, I’m Heath, the founder of HOBA TECH and host of The Business Transformation Podcast. I help Business Transformation Consultants, Business Designers and Business Architects transform their and their clients’ business and join the 30% club that succeed. Join me on this journey.